#161 - Live from Canoecopia 2026

WEBVTT

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Welcome to Paddling the Blue. With each episode, we talk with guests from the

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Great Lakes and around the globe who are doing cool things related to sea kayaking.

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I'm your host, my name is John Chase, and let's get started paddling the blue.

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Welcome to today's episode of the Paddling the Blue podcast.

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Today, we're back on the show floor at Canoe Copia in Madison, Wisconsin.

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Billed as the world's largest paddle sports expo, Canoe Copia features more

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than 100,000 square feet of canoes, kayaks, kit, outfitters,

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everything you can imagine, plus more than a hundred speakers on an incredible array of topics.

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And I'm honored to be one of those speakers.

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A big thank you to Chris Hipgrave and the P&H Piranha Kayaks team for making

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space in their booth to record this episode, and of course, for building my favorite boats.

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And thank you to the enthusiastic audiences who joined me at each of my presentations over the weekend.

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It's always exciting to see full rooms of smiling faces learning about ways

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to love paddling even more.

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And thank you to the listeners who stopped by the booth to say hello.

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I really love hearing how Paddling the Blue has inspired and positively impacted you.

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And a final thank you to the Rutabaga Paddle Sports team for producing Canoe Copia.

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It is a true pleasure to be part of this wonderful paddling community,

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and I look forward to many more opportunities to connect one-to-one in the future.

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We've got a great lineup of guests for today's episode. We're going to hear

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from guests on saving one of America's most sacred wild places from mining,

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discovering and protecting shipwrecks in the Great Lakes, paddling in Portugal,

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this crazy race called the MR340, the craftsmanship of paddle making,

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boats using a timeless design and new materials, and the surprising amount of

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engineering that goes into a kayak paddle. We'll get to today's guest in just a moment.

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If you'd like to join me on the water, I offer a wide range of programs in the U.S.

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Great Lakes and beyond from paddling skills, instructor certifications.

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CPR classes, wilderness first aid, guided trips, and more.

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Just visit paddlingtheblue.com, click the courses and trips link at the top

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of the page, and check them out. I'd love to see you on the water.

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And James Stevenson and Simon Osborne at onlineseakayaking.com continue to produce

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great content to help you evolve as a paddler and as a coach.

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You'll find everything from basic strokes and safety to paddling in tides,

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surfing, coaching, documentaries, expedition skills and incident management, and more.

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If you're not already a subscriber to OnlineSeaKeyaking.com,

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here is your opportunity to get started.

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Visit OnlineSeaKeyaking.com, use the coupon code PTBPODCAST at checkout,

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and you'll get 10% off just for being a member of the Paddling the Blue community.

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And while you're there, be sure to visit the community section where you'll

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find an interview with me. So thanks to Simon and Daniel for hosting me on their most recent meetup.

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And for those of us who also enjoy paddling whitewater boats,

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be sure to check out onlinewhitewater.com.

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They're offering the same discount to listeners using the same code PTBpodcast to check out.

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Enjoy today's episode from Canucopia.

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I have the pleasure of being joined by Gillian Fitzgerald. So Gillian,

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thank you for joining me today.

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Yeah, thanks for having us. So Gillian, you are with Save the Boundary Waters.

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Tell us a little bit about the organization.

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Sure, yeah. Yeah, so Save the Boundary Waters is a nonprofit based out of northern

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Minnesota up in Ely on the edge of the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness.

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And there is currently a copper nickel mine proposed in the headwaters,

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and we are here to protect the boundary waters permanently from that threat.

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So every copper nickel mine that's ever existed has polluted.

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Because of the way that a continental divide called the Laurentian Divide exists

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in the area, water flows north.

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And this mine would be right underneath the wilderness area.

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So it's outside and it's underneath, but the water flows north.

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So we're working to permanently protect the area from any pollution that would come from that mine.

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Okay. So those who aren't, we've got listeners in about 100 countries across the world.

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We have more listeners from outside the U.S. than inside the U.S.

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So those who aren't familiar with the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness,

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tell us what it is, where it is, and how much scale we're talking about. Sure. Yeah.

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So the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness is located in Minnesota.

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It's right up on the edge of the Canadian border.

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That's why it's called the Boundary Waters. So between the Boundary Waters and

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the Quetico Provincial Park Wilderness, which is on the Canadian side,

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together it's 2.2 million acres of wilderness.

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So there's a lot you can do there.

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It's federally protected on the United States by the Forest Service.

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It's currently the highest designation of protection you can have is wilderness.

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There's a lot you can do there. You can do day trips, overnight canoe trips.

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There are certain areas where you can use motorboats.

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So it's not just for canoes. In the winter, it freezes.

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So it's not necessarily the best time for a canoe when the lake is frozen, right?

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Water's a little crunchy. Water's a little crunchy, yeah. So winter's a great time for ice fishing.

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You'll see people out there with ice houses building things called Quincy's and dog sledding.

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Yeah, so it's really a great recreation area year-round. There's a lot of really special wildlife.

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But yeah, just a lot of protections there. All right. Now, how long has it been federally protected?

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The Wilderness Act was passed in 1964, and then the Boundary Waters Act passed

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in 1978, I believe. So it was protected.

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Different levels of protections happened during each of those.

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Okay. And so no mining can happen there now, but it's proposed that it can.

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Yeah, so the Wilderness Act prevents mining from happening in the Boundary Waters,

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and there's a buffer zone a little bit on the outside.

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So that area is protected, but this mine is proposed in the Headwaters.

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It's outside the buffer zone, just barely, and the pollution would flow right into it.

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So it's not protected under the Wilderness Act as of now. Okay, all right.

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So the attempt is not to change the protection. Correct, yeah.

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Yeah, so we just want the protections that decided the Boundary Waters is worth

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protecting to apply to this copper mine in the Headwaters as well. Okay.

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And what would, if this mine was there, what would happen?

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So every copper nickel mine that's ever happened has polluted.

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So we would see pollution upstream and building the mines, they would be putting

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roads in areas where roads wouldn't exist.

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The way that the mine company has said they would store their waste rock called

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tailings is dry stack tailings.

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So you would see that from Birch Lake where the mine is proposed.

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You would be able to see that it risks light pollution from all the bright lights

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and the dust that's created in the process. You hear a lot of noise and what's

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right now a very quiet, special place. So there's a lot at risk,

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too, besides just the like water stream pollution.

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It impacts wildlife. It impacts human health. But yeah, there's a lot at risk

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besides just a pretty place.

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Yeah, absolutely. There's a huge impact there. So if people wanted to get involved

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and help Save the Boundary Waters, how can people do that?

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Yeah, great question. So you can get involved with us at our website.

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That's www.savetheboundarywaters.org. There's a link on top that says take action

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and that'll give you a lot of resources.

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But right now, what we're asking is people all over the country,

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no matter where you are, because the Boundary Waters is managed by the Forest

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Service that makes it federal land, America's public lands for everyone everywhere in the country.

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Call your U.S. senators and tell them to vote no on House Joint Resolution 140.

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That's a bad bill that was introduced and passed in the U.S.

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House, and it's sitting and waiting at the Senate now.

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So if and when it were to come to a vote, we need senators from all over the

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country speaking up for the Boundary Waters, even if you don't live in Minnesota

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and they don't represent Minnesota. Okay.

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Now, is there a similar effort underway on the Canadian side to save Quetico? Yeah, great question.

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We like to say, what about Canada? So there's a treaty that exists,

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right, that was put in place a long time ago saying, hey, like, we share a border.

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We're not going to pollute each other's waters. Cool. Sounds great.

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But yeah, that treaty isn't really being honored right now. And a couple of

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years ago, the Canadian government wrote a letter saying, hey,

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like, this is something we care about. Please don't pollute this place.

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But that's ultimately to the extent of their involvement because it's within

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the United States and the United States government.

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The Canadian government doesn't really have a stake. All right.

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Is there a way for our Canadian friends to be able to help and support the mission?

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Spread the word. If you know people on the United States side,

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yeah, tell your friends to call their senators, keep speaking up for this quiet

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place, and ultimately just, yeah, enjoy the place, love it, and tell everyone you know about it.

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The more people we get out there and show the magic of this place, the better. All right.

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And anybody can donate to the organization as well to continue to support your mission in that way.

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So if they're in an organization where they can't vote or they can't influence

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their senators, they may be able to provide a financial contribution that can help you go forward.

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Yeah, for sure. And donations are super appreciated. All right.

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Gillian, thank you very much. And we appreciate your mission.

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We appreciate the work that you do. Thanks. We appreciate it.

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I'm joined next by Alyssa Saldivara. Alyssa is with the Wisconsin Shipwreck

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Coast. Alyssa, welcome.

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Hi, I'm very happy to be here. Yeah, so thank you for joining me.

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So tell us, what is the Wisconsin Shipwreck Coast?

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Yeah, so the Wisconsin Shipwreck Coast National Marine Sanctuary is a federally designated sanctuary.

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We're part of the sanctuary system, so there are about 17 national marine sanctuaries

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in the United States and the associated territories.

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They go from Hawaii to Guam to Ontario, Lake Ontario, up in the Great Lakes,

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and then, of course, Wisconsin Shipwreck Coast, which is in Lake Michigan,

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which is actually touching Wisconsin.

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So it's 93 miles of coastline from basically right north of two rivers and then

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to the south of Port Washington.

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We are there to protect a little over 40 known shipwrecks in that area inside of Lake Michigan.

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And these shipwrecks are absolutely beautiful. They range from depths of basically

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onshore to about 400 feet deep.

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So there's quite a difference there. And we want to make sure that these are

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publicly accessible and we want to make sure that people know that they're out

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there and the amazing history that Wisconsin has.

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So how does an area get designated as a National Marine Sanctuary?

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Really, it is an act of Congress.

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So that means that it takes states and a lot of community supporters and a lot

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of people just in the area that want it to be there, right?

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They want that federal recognition. So we at the Wisconsin Shipwreck Coast are

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really lucky to have four amazing communities that are a part of our shipwreck

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coast, and that is Two Rivers, Wisconsin, Manitowoc, Wisconsin,

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Sheboygan, Wisconsin, and Port Washington, Wisconsin.

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These are just phenomenal places to go,

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and they were just strong supporters of making sure that this place and all

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of these shipwrecks were not only protected,

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but so that they could use the resources from a national marine sanctuary coming

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in and offering to their communities as well. So what does that protection offer?

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Yeah. So right now, so this sanctuary has been designated since mid to late 2021.

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And so this brings a lot of protections, not necessarily in saying,

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you know, you can't go on to these shipwrecks.

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It's really, hey, how can we get to these shipwrecks? How can we do it safely?

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Right. And how can we protect these shipwrecks for long terms?

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So what that means for divers, for examples, you know, we don't want you to

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stop diving on these wrecks.

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We are encouraging you to go down and explore these wrecks. They are yours.

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They are your cultural heritage and your history. We want you to go on to these.

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So we actually have a mooring buoy system where a lot of our shipwrecks,

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the ones that are basically dived on most often,

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will have mooring buoys that are two train wheels that are welded together that

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sit next to the shipwreck on the lake bottom.

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And then it goes up to a subsurface buoy. And then there's another cable attached

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to it that is at the mooring buoy at the surface.

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And so dive charters, research vessels, or anybody that wants to go out and

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actually look at these vessels can moor to that buoy very safely without dropping

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anchor and potentially hitting that shipwreck, right? So we want people to be able to have.

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Have these shipwrecks somewhere really accessible. And so that's one of the

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ways that we have really tried to protect these shipwrecks.

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That's really cool. Now, at your booth, you have a map that has all the coordinates

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and all the locations and information about the shipwrecks. I assume that that's

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also available on a website?

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Yes, absolutely. So we have a government website, which is actually at the Wisconsin

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Shipwreck Coast National Marine Sanctuary government website.

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And then we also have an amazing group that helps kind of promote the sanctuary,

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which is the shipwreckcoastfriends.org.

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So the Friends of the Shipwreck Coast is a really great group and they're an

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advocational group to just get the noise out there a little bit more, right?

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To really promote us as much as we possibly can.

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And so they've got a really good website and also an interactive map on that

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website that has coordinates for all of the shipwrecks and exactly their depths,

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how you can get to them, and information like the history or what is this wreck intact?

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Does it have a full 3D model of it, right? And everything possible that you can really think of.

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That's really cool. Now, I know as paddlers, I mean, for me,

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shipwrecks fascinate me.

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You know, the idea of paddling over a shipwreck, I think is just really cool.

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And then learning the history about it, I think is really neat. And then.

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The National Marine Sanctuary in the shipwreck coast gives a way to not only

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find those, but then to learn that history.

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That's really cool. It really does. And for paddlers out there,

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right, I know I've been talking about diving on these wrecks,

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but for paddlers specifically, there are wrecks that are in shallow, right?

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I mentioned that, you know, these are from shore to very deep wrecks.

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And so we do have some really great wrecks. I think about six or seven of them.

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I think we have seven marker buoys.

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And so they're buoys that are much smaller than our giant mooring buoys that

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are dropped off seasonally. So are our mooring buoys, but they're always dropped off seasonally.

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And they mark our shallow shipwrecks. So these shipwrecks are within 10 to 15 feet underwater.

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And when you paddle over them, you know, on a paddleboard, kayak,

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canoe, anything that you can imagine, or you can just go out and snorkel them,

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you can actually see these wrecks, right?

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And in a lot of cases, you know, they're not as intact as those deepwater wrecks,

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but they're still really amazing to see.

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You know, you can see full engines, boilers, and the outlines of shipwrecks, you know, frames.

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A lot of things are still there for you to look at and enjoy.

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So the ones that are in shallow water that paddlers can see, what's your favorite?

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What do you think is the most interesting one that has the most context to it?

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Yeah, so I think I would have to say...

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That's, I think I would have to say the continental wreck.

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I will be honest, I don't know the whole entire history of the continental,

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but as a shipwreck, I think it's really cool.

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I am the boat operator for the National Marine Sanctuary.

00:14:01.014 --> 00:14:05.054
So in it, I think a lot of people in Two Rivers can get a little frustrated

00:14:05.054 --> 00:14:08.314
by this shipwreck because it has a boiler that is basically sticking out of

00:14:08.314 --> 00:14:11.234
the water nearly the entirety of the summer season.

00:14:11.374 --> 00:14:15.434
So it's a bit dangerous to traverse around. You know, we don't want to get hit

00:14:15.434 --> 00:14:18.514
by a jet ski or a boat or anything else that's in the area.

00:14:18.714 --> 00:14:23.634
And it does have a very large orange buoy on it to indicate that it is a giant

00:14:23.634 --> 00:14:25.574
metal engine sticking up out of the water.

00:14:25.834 --> 00:14:28.954
But it's really something that's interesting to see. And on calm days,

00:14:28.994 --> 00:14:31.374
you can also see the entirety of the shipwreck around it.

00:14:31.454 --> 00:14:34.414
But that is just protruding out of nowhere, right? It's just,

00:14:34.514 --> 00:14:36.114
what is this and why is it here?

00:14:36.254 --> 00:14:40.114
And I think it grabs people's attention from the shoreline, from when they're

00:14:40.114 --> 00:14:43.914
on water, and then pictures of that wreck as well. It's just, it's beautiful to see.

00:14:44.094 --> 00:14:46.294
All right. So if people want to learn more about the Continental,

00:14:46.534 --> 00:14:48.854
the Continental's history and the location of the Continental,

00:14:48.974 --> 00:14:51.094
as well as other shipwrecks, where would they go?

00:14:51.334 --> 00:14:55.154
Yeah. So I really recommend heading on to Facebook or Instagram at Wisconsin

00:14:55.154 --> 00:14:58.454
Shipwreck Coast National Marine Sanctuary or looking at our friends group,

00:14:58.594 --> 00:15:00.994
which is shipwreckcoastfriends.org.

00:15:01.214 --> 00:15:05.514
Super. And then you mentioned there's 17 national marine sanctuaries around the country.

00:15:06.034 --> 00:15:09.654
And the territories. And the territories. I know we've got one other in the

00:15:09.654 --> 00:15:12.574
Great Lakes, which is the Thunder Bay National Marine Sanctuary in Alpena,

00:15:12.694 --> 00:15:14.914
Michigan. Are there others right in our region here?

00:15:15.234 --> 00:15:18.454
Yeah, so there is actually. So apart from Thunder Bay, and Thunder Bay has been

00:15:18.454 --> 00:15:20.154
around for about 25 years.

00:15:20.494 --> 00:15:22.794
The Wisconsin Shipwreck Coast has only been around for about five.

00:15:22.934 --> 00:15:26.574
And then there is another that is one of our very newest sanctuaries,

00:15:26.734 --> 00:15:29.654
and it is out in Ontario, Lake Ontario.

00:15:29.974 --> 00:15:33.194
So that one is also just right around the corner. They're just getting started.

00:15:33.194 --> 00:15:34.374
I think they've been designated for...

00:15:35.140 --> 00:15:39.080
About two years now, I'm pretty sure. So they're really just getting started,

00:15:39.220 --> 00:15:42.400
but they are getting mooring buoys so that people can access those wrecks as well.

00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:46.100
Fantastic. Alyssa, thank you very much for joining us and for telling us about

00:15:46.100 --> 00:15:50.480
the Wisconsin shipwreck coast. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. You're welcome.

00:15:51.140 --> 00:15:54.360
Up next, I'm joined by Marcos Garcia-Norris. Marcos, welcome.

00:15:54.700 --> 00:15:59.040
Thank you for having me here. This is great. I was hoping one of these years I'll be on your show.

00:15:59.040 --> 00:16:01.820
Well i appreciate it hey so we've known

00:16:01.820 --> 00:16:04.700
each other for a while here and so you are here

00:16:04.700 --> 00:16:08.080
with a new new company and first time exhibitor kayak

00:16:08.080 --> 00:16:11.500
portugal yes so kayak portugal tours as

00:16:11.500 --> 00:16:14.700
it's not it's a new name the company has been

00:16:14.700 --> 00:16:18.040
around for some time seven rivers expeditions in in

00:16:18.040 --> 00:16:21.160
portugal but it's the first time in canacopia which i've

00:16:21.160 --> 00:16:23.940
been coming to for for some years and oh boy has

00:16:23.940 --> 00:16:27.440
it been exciting and tiring at the same time it's

00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:30.440
amazing how many people are interested in

00:16:30.440 --> 00:16:33.360
doing trips elsewhere so what

00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:38.200
kayak portugal does is actually it's on the label so we actually do kayaking

00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:43.840
in portugal the main trip is in the doro river so from porto all the way to

00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:48.660
the border with the spain is a 10-day trip we do shorter ones but that's the

00:16:48.660 --> 00:16:52.420
recommended one So people have time to actually visit vineyards,

00:16:52.860 --> 00:16:55.040
visit UNESCO, World Heritage Sites,

00:16:55.540 --> 00:17:01.400
prehistoric areas, and paddle calmly down the river. So it is very popular.

00:17:02.003 --> 00:17:07.223
And here, what we're trying to expand also is into a bit of a tougher kayak,

00:17:07.583 --> 00:17:11.783
which Portugal has a series of islands going towards the U.S.

00:17:11.923 --> 00:17:15.563
The first one is Madeira, which is two hours flight from mainland Portugal.

00:17:15.863 --> 00:17:19.703
And the next ones are the Azor Islands, which are actually four hours from Boston,

00:17:19.723 --> 00:17:21.963
if we want to put it in that area.

00:17:22.183 --> 00:17:28.523
So that's real sea kayaking. That's whale-watching dolphins, volcanic areas.

00:17:28.523 --> 00:17:31.263
So we're working very closely with our

00:17:31.263 --> 00:17:34.063
portuguese colleagues to build that because we know

00:17:34.063 --> 00:17:37.283
there's going to be a lot of people wanting to do those trips yeah absolutely

00:17:37.283 --> 00:17:40.063
so now you're doing a talk here kayaking from spain to

00:17:40.063 --> 00:17:43.443
maine but you're doing it without doing it

00:17:43.443 --> 00:17:46.583
exactly it was i did introduce

00:17:46.583 --> 00:17:50.443
it today saying like will it be clickbait because the

00:17:50.443 --> 00:17:53.643
title we did want to put a fresh title out there and there's

00:17:53.643 --> 00:17:56.563
something to it because we do actually start

00:17:56.563 --> 00:18:00.083
in spain in our you know doro river trip and the

00:18:00.083 --> 00:18:02.963
last trip that we want to plan is in may so it being

00:18:02.963 --> 00:18:06.143
in four stops but without all the ugly parts

00:18:06.143 --> 00:18:10.063
where you get drifted by the gulf stream all the way to ireland or scotland

00:18:10.063 --> 00:18:15.003
and never to be seen again yeah so it is different different projects but just

00:18:15.003 --> 00:18:19.623
basically putting the idea and paddler's minds of hey there's all these opportunities

00:18:19.623 --> 00:18:24.163
out there from spain to maine sure Now, while crossings may be interesting,

00:18:24.603 --> 00:18:27.003
they keep all the fun stuff at the shore. Yes, absolutely.

00:18:27.723 --> 00:18:31.323
So now, how did you get involved with Kayak Portugal? So I actually...

00:18:31.683 --> 00:18:35.483
Because I grew up in Spain. I used to travel to Portugal a lot.

00:18:35.603 --> 00:18:36.943
And I wanted to kayak in Portugal.

00:18:37.123 --> 00:18:41.543
So I joined one of the trips with Seven River Expeditions when it was called that.

00:18:41.743 --> 00:18:45.803
And they were looking for a kayak lead guide that spoke English.

00:18:46.123 --> 00:18:49.703
And suddenly I found myself, well, wait, I can speak English more or less.

00:18:49.823 --> 00:18:51.503
And I know a bit about kayaking.

00:18:51.863 --> 00:18:58.443
So after the first trip, I really clicked with those guys. It's a family-owned company.

00:18:58.663 --> 00:19:02.503
They cook all the food when we go on a trip. They really look after their guests,

00:19:02.583 --> 00:19:04.043
and they're like very small groups.

00:19:04.163 --> 00:19:07.183
So I decided I can do this a few more times.

00:19:07.423 --> 00:19:13.523
And as we traveled and we built our relationship, I've started introducing a

00:19:13.523 --> 00:19:18.223
few of the American Canoe Association guidelines with them, sort of improving

00:19:18.223 --> 00:19:20.523
some of the rescue techniques that they use.

00:19:20.643 --> 00:19:22.903
So everything sort of clicks.

00:19:23.163 --> 00:19:26.263
And I go to Spain very often as my family is there.

00:19:26.423 --> 00:19:30.823
So why not kayak while I visit the family? There we go. Not a bad connection.

00:19:30.943 --> 00:19:33.723
Exactly at all so so you mentioned they

00:19:33.723 --> 00:19:36.863
cook for the trips as well so these are not roughing it

00:19:36.863 --> 00:19:40.123
rustic trips these are these are high-end luxury

00:19:40.123 --> 00:19:42.983
trips these well i would remove the word

00:19:42.983 --> 00:19:47.863
luxury except it's it's cheaper luxury in the sense that they're not expensive

00:19:47.863 --> 00:19:53.143
trips when you compare them to some some of the costs out there so the the cooking

00:19:53.143 --> 00:19:57.483
is done in-house unless we're staying in a hotel where there's not a kitchen

00:19:57.483 --> 00:20:02.223
that we we can call because we like sharing with our guests local dishes.

00:20:02.483 --> 00:20:05.523
Oh, absolutely. And we also do wine tasting. And by the way,

00:20:05.603 --> 00:20:11.923
I have become the official wine taster for the group. I don't know how that happened. So we do.

00:20:12.923 --> 00:20:16.523
There is no camping involved in this trip. First of all, because there's only

00:20:16.523 --> 00:20:19.443
a couple of camping grounds in the River Doro.

00:20:20.063 --> 00:20:25.723
And secondly, because the options that are available in the villages around there are immense.

00:20:25.903 --> 00:20:30.643
And we like giving back to the local community. So by staying in rural houses

00:20:30.643 --> 00:20:34.743
and villages, you're actually sharing a bit of that income with all the local

00:20:34.743 --> 00:20:36.523
populations. That's part of the philosophy.

00:20:36.743 --> 00:20:40.243
That's a great way to travel. And I bet you learn more and make a much deeper

00:20:40.243 --> 00:20:43.363
connection with the community as well. Absolutely. It's good.

00:20:43.923 --> 00:20:48.243
I end up translating a lot of Portuguese to English because some of our guests

00:20:48.243 --> 00:20:49.863
do want to speak with the locals.

00:20:50.223 --> 00:20:55.883
And my Portuguese is improved a lot, but village Portuguese is a bit more intense

00:20:55.883 --> 00:20:57.363
than I would like it to be.

00:20:57.503 --> 00:21:01.463
But we do interact with the local population quite a lot and chat with them

00:21:01.463 --> 00:21:02.683
and find out what they're doing.

00:21:03.223 --> 00:21:08.963
That's fantastic. So congratulations on bringing those trips here and bringing people from the U.S.

00:21:09.203 --> 00:21:11.743
Out to Portugal to experience the countryside.

00:21:12.023 --> 00:21:14.583
Thank you very much. Hopefully I'll see you again. One other question.

00:21:14.723 --> 00:21:16.263
How would people find it?

00:21:16.763 --> 00:21:21.263
That's a good point. So everything's on the webpage. So kayakportugaltours.com.

00:21:21.423 --> 00:21:25.503
And I'm there in U.S. time zone to reply to any questions.

00:21:25.783 --> 00:21:29.523
I'm happy to organize, especially when it comes to what flights do I get,

00:21:29.663 --> 00:21:33.783
where do I go, on what other things can we do in Portugal or Spain Wonderful

00:21:33.783 --> 00:21:37.863
Thank you Marcos Thank you very much Updacks I'm joined by Corey Nowinska Corey

00:21:37.863 --> 00:21:42.123
welcome Thank you Yeah you're with Aquabound and Bending Branches That's right

00:21:42.123 --> 00:21:43.903
So one company two brands into that.

00:21:44.404 --> 00:21:51.264
Cool, cool. Now tell me your role. So I work as the VP of operations at Branches.

00:21:51.484 --> 00:21:56.364
And as you're alluding to, Branches, one company, family-oriented culture.

00:21:56.804 --> 00:21:59.804
And then we have the two different product lines. So the Bending Branches product

00:21:59.804 --> 00:22:03.044
line and the Aquabound product line. Okay. Now you're one of three owners of

00:22:03.044 --> 00:22:03.784
the company. Is that correct?

00:22:03.964 --> 00:22:07.604
Yeah. So Jason, our president, and Brian, our VP of sales.

00:22:07.864 --> 00:22:12.444
And we're blessed to buy the business from Ed Vader about three years ago now.

00:22:12.604 --> 00:22:15.404
That's fantastic. Yeah, great. Now, how long have you been with the company?

00:22:15.624 --> 00:22:20.124
I started there out of engineering school. So I graduated from a UW school called

00:22:20.124 --> 00:22:22.284
UW Stout with an engineering degree.

00:22:22.664 --> 00:22:27.724
Funny back story is I grew up playing hockey and I knew bending ranches from my hockey days.

00:22:27.924 --> 00:22:31.544
And I showed up to the interview and Ed, the previous owner,

00:22:31.784 --> 00:22:35.024
and Jason, now our president and a partner of mine.

00:22:35.404 --> 00:22:38.864
I showed up to the interview thinking I was going to interview for a place building

00:22:38.864 --> 00:22:41.104
hockey sticks. And they all had all these paddles on the wall.

00:22:41.244 --> 00:22:43.824
And I asked, I said, well, where are the hockey sticks?

00:22:44.164 --> 00:22:46.724
And they said, we don't do that anymore. And I thought, well,

00:22:46.884 --> 00:22:50.384
I think I even told them right up front, well, that shows how much I prepared for the interview.

00:22:50.444 --> 00:22:53.344
So do you want me to leave now or can we still have the conversation?

00:22:53.344 --> 00:22:55.604
They laughed and made a joke of it.

00:22:55.704 --> 00:22:59.124
But yeah, I showed up to interview for a place that built hockey sticks and

00:22:59.124 --> 00:23:03.364
found out that it was canoe paddles, kayak paddles, and stand-up paddles.

00:23:03.464 --> 00:23:06.524
And I hit it off with them. And that was about 12 years ago.

00:23:06.524 --> 00:23:12.964
So I started with them then and started my initial role was as product engineer

00:23:12.964 --> 00:23:16.044
and doing some equipment improvements, if you will.

00:23:16.164 --> 00:23:21.744
So we put in several new innovative ways to bond plastics to carbons.

00:23:21.904 --> 00:23:26.144
And I got some experience in project management.

00:23:26.244 --> 00:23:31.764
And then I found a love for product management as well, which is where the future

00:23:31.764 --> 00:23:32.824
of the products could go.

00:23:32.824 --> 00:23:38.184
So I got a unique background from the engineering side on equipment and material

00:23:38.184 --> 00:23:42.784
strengths, testing, that type of thing. But then I also really enjoy engineering.

00:23:43.423 --> 00:23:46.203
Paddling products we want to move forward to

00:23:46.203 --> 00:23:48.823
in the future okay now you said it's kind of

00:23:48.823 --> 00:23:51.643
funny that you know you went there looking for for hockey sticks because

00:23:51.643 --> 00:23:54.643
they made hockey sticks at one time that's right and it was a paddling

00:23:54.643 --> 00:23:57.483
company that added hockey sticks as a kind of a second line to

00:23:57.483 --> 00:24:00.323
fill that that was winter months yeah and uh

00:24:00.323 --> 00:24:03.563
obviously when you know our our facilities in

00:24:03.563 --> 00:24:06.663
in northwestern wisconsin so around november time

00:24:06.663 --> 00:24:09.943
people are more interested in snow shovels than paddles right so the

00:24:09.943 --> 00:24:12.823
hockey season on paper was it was a great fit but it

00:24:12.823 --> 00:24:16.223
it really took a lot of extra investment and capital

00:24:16.223 --> 00:24:19.243
try to run two independent businesses like that and it

00:24:19.243 --> 00:24:22.423
didn't work out on on paper especially when you were competing in

00:24:22.423 --> 00:24:25.163
in the hockey world with with the big players like ccm and

00:24:25.163 --> 00:24:29.183
nike and bauer and and the such sure sure now you mentioned a little bit about

00:24:29.183 --> 00:24:32.063
the line so tell us a little bit about the line of paddles that you're uh you're

00:24:32.063 --> 00:24:36.203
you're offering yeah so on the aquabound side we really start kind of in the

00:24:36.203 --> 00:24:40.663
mid-range recreational product on the kayak side and we really carry that to

00:24:40.663 --> 00:24:44.183
the high end so our stingray and manta ray is a,

00:24:44.723 --> 00:24:48.963
great paddle for for folks getting into the sport and that will carry them deep

00:24:48.963 --> 00:24:54.103
in to as they learn and grow we move into the tetra the whiskey excuse me the

00:24:54.103 --> 00:24:57.423
tango and the whiskey is kind of that upper end and then our tetras on the top

00:24:57.423 --> 00:25:02.043
end that aquabound side also houses our whitewater lineup which is growing.

00:25:02.903 --> 00:25:05.383
And the aerial and the shred.

00:25:05.783 --> 00:25:09.783
We have a few whitewater canoe sticks, like the edge as well.

00:25:10.003 --> 00:25:13.743
And then we do have some stand-up on the aquabound side, whereas the bending

00:25:13.743 --> 00:25:17.643
branches is also a slightly different customer, but also segmented like that.

00:25:17.743 --> 00:25:20.883
So when we think about bending branches, we're thinking about our canoe customer.

00:25:21.123 --> 00:25:23.383
That's bending branches where we started with the wooden canoe.

00:25:24.537 --> 00:25:29.837
The premium canoe offering moving into the black pearl, which is a composite full carbon paddle.

00:25:30.117 --> 00:25:33.977
And then on the bending branches side, we also have the kayak fishing,

00:25:34.197 --> 00:25:37.597
which, which you would have ever thought there's a special paddle just for fishing, right.

00:25:37.717 --> 00:25:42.037
But longer, a little more heavy duty, you know, designed with the fishermen in mind.

00:25:42.177 --> 00:25:45.897
And then we also have kind of what we call our, our bending branches rec lineup.

00:25:46.177 --> 00:25:49.597
That's a more of a price point focused product to get people into the sport,

00:25:49.717 --> 00:25:52.257
try to lower the barrier to entry, right.

00:25:52.257 --> 00:25:55.057
All of this gear costs money. and then unless you get

00:25:55.057 --> 00:25:58.597
into it and you get to see and feel and experience it's

00:25:58.597 --> 00:26:01.557
really hard to understand why you'd spend four hundred dollars on a paddle or

00:26:01.557 --> 00:26:04.357
x amount on a boat or a pfd but when you get out

00:26:04.357 --> 00:26:08.317
there and and you really see and feel it then it makes a lot more sense but

00:26:08.317 --> 00:26:11.637
we're trying to reduce that barrier to entry so on the bending branches rec

00:26:11.637 --> 00:26:15.977
side trying to you know trying to get folks into a paddle that at least be something

00:26:15.977 --> 00:26:20.177
that's a quality made product and come with our customer service excellent excellent

00:26:20.177 --> 00:26:24.217
so now you mentioned the tetra Tetra is one of your newer paddles. Yeah.

00:26:24.497 --> 00:26:28.057
And so a high-end paddle. So I think that's something our listeners might be

00:26:28.057 --> 00:26:31.337
interested. So tell us a little bit about what is it? What makes the Tetra special?

00:26:31.597 --> 00:26:35.737
So what's unique about the Tetra is it's monolithically molded.

00:26:35.797 --> 00:26:39.617
Well, what's monolithically molded? It's a fancy term that means it's made in one piece.

00:26:39.837 --> 00:26:43.877
Okay. So it's made in one shot. So the funny thing about the Tetra is we actually

00:26:43.877 --> 00:26:45.737
sew it together in a freezer.

00:26:46.177 --> 00:26:50.557
Really? So the Tetra is made of pre-preg carbon.

00:26:51.291 --> 00:26:53.351
So it's a pre-preg carbon made product. What does that mean?

00:26:53.571 --> 00:26:58.371
So pre-preg carbon, instead of raw carbon fiber and then introducing resin later.

00:26:59.131 --> 00:27:03.911
We actually are bringing in carbon that has a resin film embedded into it.

00:27:04.031 --> 00:27:09.751
And then we're actually able to make that, shape that, and we need to keep that

00:27:09.751 --> 00:27:13.111
cool. Otherwise, if you warm that resin up, it starts to cure.

00:27:13.451 --> 00:27:18.691
So we're actually shaping everything. And then the tetra is a monolithic part.

00:27:18.691 --> 00:27:20.871
So we're doing the shaft and the blade all together.

00:27:21.291 --> 00:27:25.451
And then we're sowing, we're getting it all wrapped, and then we're sowing that

00:27:25.451 --> 00:27:28.931
edge around the tip of the blade together with our landlock technology.

00:27:29.111 --> 00:27:34.271
And what that does is it drastically increases the durability of the tip.

00:27:34.491 --> 00:27:38.491
And when you impact a rock or run it into something that you don't want to be,

00:27:38.711 --> 00:27:43.351
that is able to pull the energy from the surrounding area versus just trying

00:27:43.351 --> 00:27:46.791
to absorb the blunt force with a single point load.

00:27:46.811 --> 00:27:50.031
So it's able to pull energy from the surrounding areas, and

00:27:50.031 --> 00:27:52.851
we have to sew that together before we mold it

00:27:52.851 --> 00:27:55.891
and we have to do that in a in a in a cooled environment

00:27:55.891 --> 00:27:58.611
so we're sewing it together in the freezer is kind of my way of saying

00:27:58.611 --> 00:28:01.471
that otherwise if if we warmed it up that

00:28:01.471 --> 00:28:07.071
resin would start to cure and it wouldn't turn out as we wanted to okay so the

00:28:07.071 --> 00:28:11.931
tetra as you're asking it's it's our lightest weight paddle it is a full foam

00:28:11.931 --> 00:28:16.071
core blade it's got the lamlot technology because in in the past that that's

00:28:16.071 --> 00:28:19.491
been the downfall of the full-form core is that you can D-LAM.

00:28:19.831 --> 00:28:25.351
So how we wrap that material and how we sew it together, it removes that from the equation.

00:28:25.551 --> 00:28:27.931
All right. And you can actually see the stitching along the bottom of it,

00:28:27.971 --> 00:28:29.291
which is kind of cool looking. Yeah, yeah.

00:28:30.551 --> 00:28:35.731
It's made from an aramid material. Aramid is incredibly abrasion resistant,

00:28:35.731 --> 00:28:40.791
and it also has, like we were talking about, it is able to handle that impact.

00:28:41.668 --> 00:28:45.428
Rocks or the bottom or neighboring boat, whatever it might be.

00:28:45.668 --> 00:28:49.748
Very cool. Very cool. Now, whoever would have thought that much engineering goes into a paddle?

00:28:50.348 --> 00:28:54.848
Well, it is funny. When I started at Branches, I think my mom said,

00:28:54.928 --> 00:29:00.048
well, what are you going to do to make canoe paddles better?

00:29:00.268 --> 00:29:03.308
Right? And I was like, well, they've been around forever. What are you going to do?

00:29:03.468 --> 00:29:09.148
And that question still is something that we're working on day by day, hour by hour.

00:29:09.148 --> 00:29:11.988
So this was an innovation that came into

00:29:11.988 --> 00:29:14.848
the paddle sports and in all seriousness it

00:29:14.848 --> 00:29:17.808
wasn't fancy it wasn't by design but it was an idea that

00:29:17.808 --> 00:29:20.448
a couple colleagues and I had and and we

00:29:20.448 --> 00:29:24.328
literally brought one of grandma's sewing machines in and we're hand stitching

00:29:24.328 --> 00:29:28.508
it I show you pictures and it it looks about as funny as you'd expect as it

00:29:28.508 --> 00:29:32.868
started but so from the humble beginnings until now we've come a long ways we

00:29:32.868 --> 00:29:36.168
have different ways of doing it now that are a lot better than grandma's sewing

00:29:36.168 --> 00:29:38.868
machine and me by hand, not being a seamstress whatsoever.

00:29:39.708 --> 00:29:44.088
Well, nice work. Again, appreciate the, appreciate the background. Yeah, absolutely.

00:29:44.308 --> 00:29:47.548
That's pretty cool. So thank you very much. Where can people learn more about

00:29:47.548 --> 00:29:49.068
your, your, your products?

00:29:49.368 --> 00:29:53.728
Yeah. So our website, aquabound.com, ourbendingbranches.com.

00:29:54.148 --> 00:29:57.808
Obviously your local paddle sports shop would be a great resource as well.

00:29:57.948 --> 00:30:00.568
We have a dealer locator on both of our sites.

00:30:00.868 --> 00:30:05.148
Our dealers, our reps and phone call to us, any one of those three options we'd,

00:30:05.148 --> 00:30:07.868
that we'd love to hear from, from anyone that's interested in learning more.

00:30:08.048 --> 00:30:09.928
Great. Well, thank you for supporting the local retailers.

00:30:10.248 --> 00:30:13.048
Yeah, absolutely. They're a huge, a huge piece of the whole pie.

00:30:13.348 --> 00:30:15.808
Absolutely. All right, Corey, thank you very much. Thank you,

00:30:15.888 --> 00:30:16.908
John. Have a great day. You too.

00:30:17.648 --> 00:30:21.848
And joining me now is Steve Sycamon. Steve, you're with old mustache canoe paddles.

00:30:22.248 --> 00:30:26.448
That's correct. Yeah. So while we're, you know, the podcast is mostly kayak

00:30:26.448 --> 00:30:29.448
related, but they're all boats where, whether it's a canoe kayak,

00:30:29.488 --> 00:30:30.788
we're all in the water having fun.

00:30:30.908 --> 00:30:33.268
And, and you've got an interesting company. So tell us.

00:30:34.035 --> 00:30:38.495
I can see what is probably the answer, but how did Old Mustache Canoe Paddles get its name?

00:30:38.675 --> 00:30:42.735
Well, one morning I looked in the mirror and I needed a name for my company,

00:30:43.255 --> 00:30:46.555
and that mustache was sitting there right out front. Yes.

00:30:46.795 --> 00:30:51.615
I've had a rather bushy mustache for a number of years, and it just seemed to

00:30:51.615 --> 00:30:54.115
be the right name for the company. It's prominent, that's for certain.

00:30:54.295 --> 00:30:58.555
Yes, thank you. Thank you. My logo even looks a little bit like me.

00:30:58.755 --> 00:31:01.775
Yeah, yeah, I like that. Yeah. I like that. So what's the story?

00:31:01.855 --> 00:31:05.435
How'd you get started in paddle building? Well, I've been a paddler forever.

00:31:05.655 --> 00:31:09.915
All right. I've been a woodworker for almost forever. And as I was getting close

00:31:09.915 --> 00:31:12.415
to retirement, I was thinking about what to do.

00:31:12.855 --> 00:31:18.755
And I always thought I could build a paddle that I'm more satisfied with than what I can buy.

00:31:18.995 --> 00:31:25.295
Okay. And so that started the process. I spent about four years part-time doing prototypes.

00:31:25.975 --> 00:31:28.835
After those four years, I was happy with what I had.

00:31:29.215 --> 00:31:32.615
And so then I started selling paddles. Okay. All right. Now,

00:31:33.035 --> 00:31:39.635
tell us about the process that goes into building what are beautiful paddles, absolute works of art.

00:31:39.755 --> 00:31:42.715
Well, thank you very much. It's kind of a complicated process.

00:31:42.995 --> 00:31:48.535
I do a laminated paddle. It has a hollow shaft, and that's part of the lamination process.

00:31:48.655 --> 00:31:54.775
I build my blade separately from the paddle, which allows me to make the blade lighter weight.

00:31:55.095 --> 00:32:00.475
So there's a glue-up process there. I spend about 17 hours per paddle,

00:32:00.815 --> 00:32:05.675
but that's doing them in a production run of maybe six or a dozen paddles at a time.

00:32:05.995 --> 00:32:10.855
If I were to do a one-off paddle, we'd probably be looking at 20 or 25 hours.

00:32:11.155 --> 00:32:14.555
Okay. So I get a little bit of efficiency by doing, you know, a production run.

00:32:15.229 --> 00:32:20.269
Sure, sure. Now, what woods do you use generally? I use predominantly western red cedar.

00:32:20.569 --> 00:32:24.369
Okay. Western red cedar is a great wood for canoe paddles. It's lightweight,

00:32:24.789 --> 00:32:28.429
but it's resilient and it's got good stiffness properties.

00:32:28.869 --> 00:32:31.789
And so that's kind of where I've ended up.

00:32:32.129 --> 00:32:36.289
The weight is a big issue for me. My paddles weigh 16 to 17 ounces,

00:32:36.509 --> 00:32:38.989
which is pretty light for a wooden pad. Absolutely.

00:32:39.309 --> 00:32:43.449
And so, you know, finding, sourcing the right wood is a big deal.

00:32:43.989 --> 00:32:47.249
And each of them are handmade. My paddles are totally handmade.

00:32:48.009 --> 00:32:51.929
I can get to a certain point with machines. I mean, I've got a table saw and

00:32:51.929 --> 00:32:54.529
a planer and a joiner and that sort of thing.

00:32:54.949 --> 00:32:58.309
But the shaft is shaped entirely by hand with a spokeshave.

00:32:58.569 --> 00:33:02.449
I have a rather unique grip. I spend about two hours on each grip,

00:33:02.609 --> 00:33:03.569
shaping each grip. Yeah.

00:33:03.829 --> 00:33:06.849
Because it can only be done with a rasp and sandpaper.

00:33:07.129 --> 00:33:11.029
And I haven't been able to invent the right router bit to do it.

00:33:11.569 --> 00:33:14.709
And you're carrying, you're holding on to one of your paddles right now.

00:33:14.969 --> 00:33:18.089
So again, viewers or listeners can't see that, but it's very,

00:33:18.269 --> 00:33:22.209
very intricate in the grip. And you can see all the laminates in there.

00:33:22.369 --> 00:33:25.849
Yes. All the layers, I should say. All the layers, yeah. And that's a laminating

00:33:25.849 --> 00:33:30.249
process, a gluing process. I use epoxy for my gluing.

00:33:30.469 --> 00:33:33.329
One interesting thing about my paddles is that they're balanced.

00:33:33.709 --> 00:33:39.269
That's a big part of my promotion, that the paddles are balanced.

00:33:39.269 --> 00:33:42.469
So what that means is most canoe paddles

00:33:42.469 --> 00:33:45.469
are blade heavy so where your

00:33:45.469 --> 00:33:48.329
lower hand grips the shaft that's my

00:33:48.329 --> 00:33:53.309
balance point so i actually add weight to the grip to counterbalance the weight

00:33:53.309 --> 00:33:57.409
of the blade and what that does is when you're coming up out of the water with

00:33:57.409 --> 00:34:03.009
your paddle the blade and the grip are neutral so the paddle actually feels

00:34:03.009 --> 00:34:05.829
lighter weight because you're not swinging the weight of that.

00:34:07.433 --> 00:34:11.153
And how many different styles of paddle do you have? Well, I have two styles.

00:34:11.353 --> 00:34:15.853
They're all bent shafts, so I have a 6-degree bend and I have an 11-degree bend.

00:34:16.393 --> 00:34:20.293
Somewhat different purposes, the 11-degree bend is great for hit-and-switch

00:34:20.293 --> 00:34:24.853
paddling where you're paddling a few strokes on one side, then you're switching to the other side.

00:34:25.093 --> 00:34:31.073
The 6-degree bend is getting closer to a straight, so your corrective strokes are easier to do.

00:34:32.153 --> 00:34:36.793
The easier transition for someone that's been a straight shaft paddler into

00:34:36.793 --> 00:34:38.333
a bent shaft paddler. Okay.

00:34:38.813 --> 00:34:43.293
Now, the paddle that you have with you now, that has a number 52 near the grip. Yes.

00:34:43.653 --> 00:34:48.193
In each style, the 6-degree and the 11-degree, I have five sizes.

00:34:48.453 --> 00:34:54.153
And they run at 2-inch increments. Okay. So we can fit you to exactly the right paddle that you need.

00:34:54.433 --> 00:34:58.813
Super. All right. What's the most exciting thing for you about making paddles?

00:34:59.053 --> 00:35:03.813
I think this will sound a little corny. But it's the connection with the customer.

00:35:04.393 --> 00:35:09.253
You know, we're here at Canoe Copia and I can't quite tell you how many past

00:35:09.253 --> 00:35:14.713
customers I've had come up to the booth and tell me how happy they are with a pal. Okay.

00:35:15.033 --> 00:35:19.973
So I want to put out a product that people are really happy with. They're going to use.

00:35:20.353 --> 00:35:23.773
And if they can tell somebody else about it, how happy they are,

00:35:23.973 --> 00:35:27.613
they come back and they tell me. I mean, it just, it makes me feel great.

00:35:27.833 --> 00:35:31.693
That's awesome. Do you have a favorite story from the weekend so far of something

00:35:31.693 --> 00:35:32.833
somebody has done with the paddle?

00:35:33.953 --> 00:35:40.533
Yeah. Yeah. I had a customer earlier this year break a paddle in the kitchen.

00:35:41.033 --> 00:35:46.393
So there's a story behind there. But it was just before they were going on a Boundary Waters trip.

00:35:47.493 --> 00:35:53.513
So I cover my paddles 100%. No time limit on that. I sent them a new paddle

00:35:53.513 --> 00:35:55.453
so that they could take their trip.

00:35:55.853 --> 00:36:00.713
Did I have to replace that paddle? Probably not, but I did. And they came to

00:36:00.713 --> 00:36:03.553
the booth this weekend and they were just overjoyed.

00:36:04.013 --> 00:36:07.433
Later on, their mom came to the booth and told me how happy they were.

00:36:08.693 --> 00:36:12.153
So I've got customers that are really happy with what they're using.

00:36:12.413 --> 00:36:15.593
That's fantastic. That's really important to me. Yeah, yeah.

00:36:15.733 --> 00:36:18.373
And thank you for standing behind the product. Well, I think it's important.

00:36:18.593 --> 00:36:23.553
I believe in what I do and I spend a lot of time developing these paddles and

00:36:23.553 --> 00:36:26.953
I want people to be comfortable using them and not have to worry about it.

00:36:27.433 --> 00:36:29.093
These are not a whitewater paddle.

00:36:30.713 --> 00:36:34.793
Tell people, if you give it a little bit of respect, you'll do fine.

00:36:35.113 --> 00:36:37.193
And then on top of that, I stand behind it anyway.

00:36:37.653 --> 00:36:39.853
So, you know, you can't go wrong. Yeah.

00:36:40.313 --> 00:36:44.213
Now, of course, people can find Old Mustache Canoe Paddles here at Canoe Copia,

00:36:44.293 --> 00:36:46.593
but where else can they find more information about Old Mustache?

00:36:46.593 --> 00:36:51.013
Well, I do have a website, and it's oldmustachepaddles.com.

00:36:51.293 --> 00:36:54.013
I've got all my information is on that website.

00:36:54.313 --> 00:36:57.813
You know, get in contact with me through email or telephone number.

00:36:58.073 --> 00:37:00.213
All the details about the paddles are there.

00:37:00.713 --> 00:37:04.673
The one thing about my website is I don't sell directly from the website. Okay.

00:37:04.873 --> 00:37:07.593
It's important for me to have the customer get in touch with me,

00:37:07.713 --> 00:37:11.073
and then we can talk about what size you need, what kind of paddling you're

00:37:11.073 --> 00:37:15.233
going to do, what boat you're in, and get you set up with the right paddle. Excellent.

00:37:15.473 --> 00:37:20.513
And so you sell through retailers. I do have four retailers that carry my paddles.

00:37:20.833 --> 00:37:24.573
And so with the website and the retailers and the Canucopia here,

00:37:25.073 --> 00:37:27.033
I'm kind of easy to find. All right.

00:37:27.313 --> 00:37:30.593
Steve, thank you very much. I appreciate it. And thanks for doing what you do.

00:37:30.893 --> 00:37:32.253
John, thank you very much. It's a pleasure.

00:37:33.198 --> 00:37:38.658
I'm joined now by Steve Schnarr with Missouri River Relief and the MR340. Welcome, Steve.

00:37:39.458 --> 00:37:42.878
It's great to be here at Canucopia. Yeah, it is a good time. Definitely.

00:37:43.598 --> 00:37:46.798
So MR340, what are these mystery letters and numbers?

00:37:47.438 --> 00:37:53.498
It is the Missouri River 340. This is a canoe kayak race.

00:37:53.818 --> 00:37:57.458
Also stand-up paddleboard, rowing, several different things.

00:37:57.658 --> 00:38:01.918
This is a paddling race across the state of Missouri on the Missouri River.

00:38:01.918 --> 00:38:08.058
It's 340 miles long, and it is a nonstop race, so there's no mandatory stops.

00:38:08.378 --> 00:38:12.578
Stops are up to you. This race goes all night long, 24 hours a day.

00:38:12.858 --> 00:38:19.798
You have to finish the race in 85 hours if you are in tandem or larger boat,

00:38:20.078 --> 00:38:26.078
86 hours if you're solo, and it kind of goes from there. How long has the race been running?

00:38:26.558 --> 00:38:31.538
So last year was the 20th race. This year's will be the 21st MR340.

00:38:31.758 --> 00:38:34.218
The first race was in 2006.

00:38:34.738 --> 00:38:42.078
It was started by Scott Mansker, who had been taking people on motorized exploration

00:38:42.078 --> 00:38:45.618
trips on the Missouri River, in addition to doing paddling on his own.

00:38:46.422 --> 00:38:52.842
And he just sort of saw this potential for the Missouri River as a venue for a race.

00:38:53.062 --> 00:38:56.322
It's, you know, a free flowing river through the state of Missouri.

00:38:56.502 --> 00:38:58.782
There's no dams, portages, anything like that.

00:38:59.242 --> 00:39:03.742
And there's, you know, ramps at sufficient distances along the race.

00:39:03.882 --> 00:39:08.922
It just kind of seems ideal. So he sort of started the race with this belief

00:39:08.922 --> 00:39:13.562
that the Missouri River just didn't have champions. It needed people.

00:39:13.782 --> 00:39:18.742
It needed more people that were enjoying the river on its own merits.

00:39:19.042 --> 00:39:23.582
You know, the river had kind of been turned over to commercial interests.

00:39:23.842 --> 00:39:27.962
And it just he just saw like we need people on here.

00:39:28.082 --> 00:39:31.762
We need people on this river to care about it and build a community of people

00:39:31.762 --> 00:39:35.402
that care about this river. And the MR340 has become that.

00:39:35.542 --> 00:39:40.802
The first year of the race in 2006, there was 20 paddlers and 15 boats.

00:39:41.082 --> 00:39:45.522
And nobody really even knew if it was possible, honestly, or feasible and how

00:39:45.522 --> 00:39:47.042
many days it would take or anything.

00:39:47.042 --> 00:39:52.722
And the second year of the race he capped it at 75 people and he just kind of

00:39:52.722 --> 00:39:57.402
like kept increasing that to the point where we are now where we almost don't

00:39:57.402 --> 00:39:58.982
really have to cap it but the.

00:39:59.462 --> 00:40:02.602
Capacity of this race is probably 500 boats

00:40:02.602 --> 00:40:06.122
something like that all right that and so

00:40:06.122 --> 00:40:09.182
what is it that makes this race special when you

00:40:09.182 --> 00:40:13.062
ask people that have done the mr340 what

00:40:13.062 --> 00:40:16.182
you know what is it that makes this a unique experience

00:40:16.182 --> 00:40:19.102
you know there's a few things that that really seem to come up

00:40:19.102 --> 00:40:24.762
and and one that comes up has actually nothing to do with the paddling experience

00:40:24.762 --> 00:40:30.482
the racing experience itself and that is just the community that bill has built

00:40:30.482 --> 00:40:36.262
and grown around this race which includes the the paddling community which.

00:40:37.970 --> 00:40:42.450
Quite astonishing in the way that people share knowledge openly,

00:40:42.770 --> 00:40:46.370
freely share their tips and tricks and what they've learned.

00:40:46.550 --> 00:40:50.010
You know, there's a real culture of sharing about this race.

00:40:50.110 --> 00:40:51.030
That's a beautiful thing.

00:40:51.370 --> 00:40:57.010
There's also a couple hundred volunteers that are needed to put this race on.

00:40:57.190 --> 00:41:01.550
So every boat ramp that you go to, just about everyone along the race course

00:41:01.550 --> 00:41:06.570
has volunteers, You know, some of which we organize, but some of which just

00:41:06.570 --> 00:41:10.030
show up because they love the race and they just want to help people.

00:41:10.310 --> 00:41:15.850
And it's a lot, 340 miles, you know, nonstop.

00:41:16.070 --> 00:41:20.710
So it's, it's your, you know, everybody who's in this race is pushing themselves

00:41:20.710 --> 00:41:22.670
beyond what they thought was possible.

00:41:22.670 --> 00:41:28.950
So having those smiling community faces at the boat ramp, helping encourage

00:41:28.950 --> 00:41:34.730
you, helping you out, really, it's something that's very meaningful to the people

00:41:34.730 --> 00:41:35.930
that participate in the race.

00:41:35.930 --> 00:41:40.770
And then I think the experience of being out on the Missouri River to literally

00:41:40.770 --> 00:41:48.370
cross the state of Missouri on your own paddle power on this ribbon of water

00:41:48.370 --> 00:41:53.090
through some really beautiful places and then doing it all night long and then the day.

00:41:54.336 --> 00:41:58.576
It is a lot of people talk about it as a transformational experience,

00:41:58.796 --> 00:42:04.336
you know, which is, you know, true of any kind of ultra marathon experience

00:42:04.336 --> 00:42:09.296
like this, where you're pushing yourself way beyond what you think is possible.

00:42:09.676 --> 00:42:14.936
So sort of the journey that you take to get from race start to that finish line,

00:42:15.116 --> 00:42:19.996
stroke by stroke by stroke is something that people begin to crave. Yeah.

00:42:20.176 --> 00:42:25.436
Now this race has quite a following and you mentioned it's got a great community around it.

00:42:26.236 --> 00:42:30.016
So completing, both completing and winning the race have great,

00:42:30.216 --> 00:42:33.496
they're very coveted. So, but do you have to be an elite paddler?

00:42:34.336 --> 00:42:39.256
I'm definitely not. You know, to finish the race, you do not have to be an elite paddler.

00:42:39.476 --> 00:42:44.456
It helps, you know, obviously any training and planning that you do is going

00:42:44.456 --> 00:42:45.936
to benefit you in the long run.

00:42:45.936 --> 00:42:50.756
But we have people just show up with their aluminum boat that first time and

00:42:50.756 --> 00:42:55.036
they figure it out, you know, and maybe they hurt themselves along the way,

00:42:55.216 --> 00:42:57.356
you know, and then maybe they learn from that.

00:42:57.356 --> 00:43:00.936
There are people of all skill levels and physical

00:43:00.936 --> 00:43:03.736
attributes that do this race and finish this

00:43:03.736 --> 00:43:09.536
race a good good portion like any challenge like this a good portion of getting

00:43:09.536 --> 00:43:15.296
to that finish line is actually in your mind and and in your heart you know

00:43:15.296 --> 00:43:20.976
obviously the physical challenge is is a big part of it too and then the elite

00:43:20.976 --> 00:43:22.456
most competitive paddlers.

00:43:23.449 --> 00:43:26.469
Really show everyone else like

00:43:26.469 --> 00:43:29.229
what is possible and there are some

00:43:29.229 --> 00:43:32.609
pretty incredible world-class paddlers that have

00:43:32.609 --> 00:43:35.569
also caught the mr340 bug and

00:43:35.569 --> 00:43:38.589
come back year after year certainly i mean you've got people finishing in

00:43:38.589 --> 00:43:41.429
30 something hours you've got people finishing right up at that deadline

00:43:41.429 --> 00:43:44.189
of the 80 something absolutely and you know at the

00:43:44.189 --> 00:43:47.349
end of the race friday night we have a big party we have

00:43:47.349 --> 00:43:50.209
a band we honor the the top

00:43:50.209 --> 00:43:53.469
finishers in every division and usually during

00:43:53.469 --> 00:43:56.149
that party our last paddler will

00:43:56.149 --> 00:43:58.909
be coming in and everybody hundreds of

00:43:58.909 --> 00:44:01.929
people goes down and cheers that last paddler in

00:44:01.929 --> 00:44:04.649
every year and it that in itself is an

00:44:04.649 --> 00:44:07.389
emotional experience you know for everyone involved lots of tears

00:44:07.389 --> 00:44:10.829
shed and and people feel that because they

00:44:10.829 --> 00:44:13.749
know what it's like to to do those last paddle strokes

00:44:13.749 --> 00:44:17.069
coming in and and for someone

00:44:17.069 --> 00:44:20.069
you know who's barely making

00:44:20.069 --> 00:44:23.329
that cutoff time a lot of times their journey

00:44:23.329 --> 00:44:28.549
is much harder than than people who finish in 34 hours or whatever right they

00:44:28.549 --> 00:44:32.269
had every everything to overcome it's kind of like the aditarod lantern rouge

00:44:32.269 --> 00:44:37.589
they had all the challenges that everybody else had so good on them yeah right

00:44:37.589 --> 00:44:41.069
on yeah one other quick question what is the kraken.

00:44:42.264 --> 00:44:47.964
The Kraken, there's a variety of boats actually that keep evolving and changing,

00:44:47.964 --> 00:44:53.764
but the original Kraken was designed by Matt Walters with other people,

00:44:54.044 --> 00:45:01.244
but it's essentially kind of a catamaran hull that is a pedal-driven boat that

00:45:01.244 --> 00:45:07.424
utilizes actual canoe paddles on a pretty amazing articulated mechanism.

00:45:07.424 --> 00:45:10.224
In one version there was

00:45:10.224 --> 00:45:13.664
three paddlers with three rows

00:45:13.664 --> 00:45:17.004
of paddles so canoe paddles one on

00:45:17.004 --> 00:45:19.864
each side so six paddles total and to

00:45:19.864 --> 00:45:25.144
see that thing i mean it for one thing it's incredibly efficient you know what

00:45:25.144 --> 00:45:28.764
matt really understood is that with all the different pedal drive mechanisms

00:45:28.764 --> 00:45:33.324
that people use on boats actually a canoe paddle is the most efficient way to

00:45:33.324 --> 00:45:37.744
drive boat so he just figured out how to make that work.

00:45:37.944 --> 00:45:40.764
And to watch it, you know, it looks like some sort of weird insect.

00:45:41.670 --> 00:45:46.630
Man, that thing is fast. And then there's other versions of that boat that Matt

00:45:46.630 --> 00:45:50.050
designed or other people have designed based on that same mechanism.

00:45:50.330 --> 00:45:57.890
So now I think last year there was three, maybe even four different canoe driven, canoe paddle driven,

00:45:58.290 --> 00:46:04.830
pedal drive mechanized boats that were all finished very, very well in the race.

00:46:04.830 --> 00:46:06.910
Yeah, it is the most outrageous looking thing.

00:46:07.010 --> 00:46:11.710
It's pretty cool. I'll make sure I include that in the show notes so folks can see that as well.

00:46:11.830 --> 00:46:17.770
How can people learn more about the MR340? We do have a website, MR340.org.

00:46:18.030 --> 00:46:24.490
The MR340 is hosted by Missouri River Relief, which is a nonprofit based in Columbia, Missouri.

00:46:25.130 --> 00:46:28.370
I've worked for Missouri River Relief for 20 years.

00:46:28.710 --> 00:46:32.450
This is our 25th year in 2026.

00:46:32.450 --> 00:46:38.030
We, our whole mission just dovetails with the mission, the original mission

00:46:38.030 --> 00:46:41.810
of the race and that our mission is connecting people to the Missouri River

00:46:41.810 --> 00:46:45.650
through direct experience. So we do a lot of river cleanups.

00:46:45.750 --> 00:46:50.890
Our volunteers have picked up over 2 million pounds of trash from the Missouri River in those years.

00:46:51.230 --> 00:46:56.090
Lots of education programs, kids of all ages, adults and recreation.

00:46:56.610 --> 00:47:01.570
So canoe, kayak races, and also teaching people how to catfish on the Missouri

00:47:01.570 --> 00:47:07.490
River. So those are all things that Missouri River Relief does in addition to the MR340.

00:47:07.810 --> 00:47:14.250
And our website is riverrelief.org. So either mr340.org, riverrelief.org.

00:47:14.730 --> 00:47:19.950
MR340 also has a Facebook group, which is Missouri American Water MR340.

00:47:20.210 --> 00:47:23.690
Missouri American Water is a major sponsor and partner of the race.

00:47:23.870 --> 00:47:28.370
They help prepare the finish line. They're a drinking water company for the St.

00:47:28.430 --> 00:47:33.270
Louis area and Jefferson City. That Facebook group is a cool community of sharing

00:47:33.270 --> 00:47:36.370
knowledge and selling a lot of boats.

00:47:37.853 --> 00:47:40.573
Very cool. Well, Steve, thank you very much. I appreciate you telling us about

00:47:40.573 --> 00:47:41.993
the history of the MR340.

00:47:42.213 --> 00:47:47.533
What makes that crazy cult go around, or not cult, but crazy community go around. Some people say.

00:47:48.513 --> 00:47:52.533
And I appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate it. Love the podcast and

00:47:52.533 --> 00:47:56.513
love that you're interviewing so many different people here at Canoe Copia. It's cool. Thank you.

00:47:57.193 --> 00:48:00.813
I'm joined by Nick Schada. Nick, welcome. Glad to be here. Yeah,

00:48:00.953 --> 00:48:03.153
thank you. So, Guillemont Kayaks. Yep.

00:48:03.393 --> 00:48:06.913
And you got some new things going on this year. Yeah, a few new things.

00:48:07.473 --> 00:48:11.353
I've got a couple new designs in the Gilmott Kayaks catalog.

00:48:11.753 --> 00:48:16.853
A 12-foot version of my Petrol Play I'm calling the Petrol Scout.

00:48:17.313 --> 00:48:23.033
And then a 16-foot version of the Petrol Play I'm calling the Petrol Sport.

00:48:23.573 --> 00:48:27.813
So those are now available. Just Be Like Craft is making kits for those.

00:48:28.173 --> 00:48:34.373
That's in sort of the wooden boat world. And I am also looking to venture into

00:48:34.373 --> 00:48:37.053
the composite sea kayak world a little bit.

00:48:37.233 --> 00:48:40.033
Yeah. So tell us about that. That's an interesting development.

00:48:40.333 --> 00:48:46.073
As some people may know, Joey Schott at Turning Point Boatworks was making my

00:48:46.073 --> 00:48:50.373
petrol play and petrol in a high-end infused composite.

00:48:50.533 --> 00:48:54.693
He ended up throwing in the towel for a variety of reasons.

00:48:54.693 --> 00:48:58.433
Once you become a skilled composites technician

00:48:58.433 --> 00:49:01.513
there are lots of jobs that pay very well

00:49:01.513 --> 00:49:08.313
to do that so he found such a job and went off and did that and then the the

00:49:08.313 --> 00:49:15.953
molds were available and I inherited them so I am teaming up with another Chesapeake

00:49:15.953 --> 00:49:19.913
light craft alum which Joey started out at Chesapeake light.

00:49:20.560 --> 00:49:24.780
John Staub worked for Chesapeake Lightcraft for a number of years,

00:49:25.020 --> 00:49:30.620
and he's in Annapolis, and he is in possession of the molds right now and in

00:49:30.620 --> 00:49:35.380
process of making some composite sea kayaks. Okay.

00:49:35.560 --> 00:49:39.740
And we are going to call the business Bold Coast Boats.

00:49:40.140 --> 00:49:46.300
He wants to do all sorts of boats in the long run, but sort of things that are

00:49:46.300 --> 00:49:50.120
for going out into, you know, the ocean.

00:49:50.560 --> 00:49:55.280
Okay. And I have a connection with the down east part of Maine,

00:49:55.580 --> 00:49:57.520
which some people call the Bold Coast.

00:49:57.940 --> 00:50:03.620
And so I just thought that kind of fits what we're looking to do here.

00:50:03.760 --> 00:50:05.080
I was wondering where the name came from.

00:50:05.300 --> 00:50:10.700
And here at Canucopia, actually, I'm going to be doing a presentation on sea

00:50:10.700 --> 00:50:11.700
kayaking the Bold Coast.

00:50:12.638 --> 00:50:20.418
So it's a spectacular area to paddle, and it's really been my muse for designing

00:50:20.418 --> 00:50:22.678
boats since I started paddling.

00:50:23.878 --> 00:50:29.898
As a college student, I brought my little whitewater kayak up to Winter Harbor.

00:50:30.618 --> 00:50:33.398
Maine, and paddled out to the Mark Island Light.

00:50:33.418 --> 00:50:38.858
My mom has a picture of me paddling past the Mark Island Light in this whitewater

00:50:38.858 --> 00:50:42.098
canoe, and I paddled into this place called Turtle Island.

00:50:42.638 --> 00:50:47.098
And there's this slot through the rocks opening up into a bowl that you can

00:50:47.098 --> 00:50:50.978
look out at the sea with waves crashing all around. And I was hooked.

00:50:51.278 --> 00:50:54.698
The next year, I started designing kayaks.

00:50:54.838 --> 00:51:00.718
And that's been every year up there paddling past those islands,

00:51:00.718 --> 00:51:04.758
thinking how can I make these boats better for what I'm doing here.

00:51:04.758 --> 00:51:12.258
I, it's fun to get other people up there and see how great the paddling is.

00:51:12.318 --> 00:51:16.758
And I'd like to be able to offer them some boats that are just ideal for it.

00:51:16.898 --> 00:51:19.338
I think it's probably only fitting that you inherited those,

00:51:19.338 --> 00:51:23.778
those molds because that's your initial design. Yeah, those are my designs.

00:51:24.098 --> 00:51:28.898
And it's sort of, for intellectual property reasons, I was sort of the only

00:51:28.898 --> 00:51:32.338
one they could go to unless he found a real buyer for the business.

00:51:32.618 --> 00:51:36.578
And so I ended up inheriting them. And talking to some people,

00:51:36.778 --> 00:51:40.558
John sort of piped up and said, you know, hey, I'd be interested in doing this.

00:51:40.718 --> 00:51:44.658
He has another Chesapeake light craft design by John Harris.

00:51:45.278 --> 00:51:49.718
Annapolis Wary, which he was in the process of making a mold for.

00:51:49.918 --> 00:51:53.978
And so that will be filling out the line as well in the future.

00:51:54.138 --> 00:51:55.718
Okay. If all goes as planned.

00:51:55.978 --> 00:51:59.318
So as a craftsman in wood, how do you feel about moving to composites?

00:51:59.538 --> 00:52:01.718
You know, I've never been.

00:52:04.091 --> 00:52:08.931
Into kayaks because they're wood. I've been into kayaks because I like to paddle.

00:52:09.171 --> 00:52:12.671
All right. And so I'm not fussy about what I paddle.

00:52:12.971 --> 00:52:18.891
Somebody was sort of complaining about the $300 kayaks you can get from Dick's Sporting Goods.

00:52:18.991 --> 00:52:22.431
I'd have a great time in those. You know, I like to paddle. Sure.

00:52:22.611 --> 00:52:25.391
And for the right waterway? Sure. Yeah.

00:52:25.711 --> 00:52:28.671
You know, I take it in the surf. It would be great.

00:52:28.671 --> 00:52:36.051
Um, but what I found making wood boats is I could make a excellent boat,

00:52:36.351 --> 00:52:44.731
generally lighter than a lot of the production boats and those lighter boats perform better. Right.

00:52:44.991 --> 00:52:50.091
And, but I'd like to get more people into them and not everybody wants to make their own boat.

00:52:50.231 --> 00:52:54.291
It's a, it's a process as you know. Yes. so you

00:52:54.291 --> 00:52:57.311
know when joey was looking to do something i said

00:52:57.311 --> 00:53:00.331
don't make wood boats make a

00:53:00.331 --> 00:53:03.511
very nice composite boat use infusion

00:53:03.511 --> 00:53:06.391
make a lightweight boat people will love

00:53:06.391 --> 00:53:12.211
it and they they did you know it's a tough business to enter into and he had

00:53:12.211 --> 00:53:16.771
things that made it so he needed to move on but you know i think there's an

00:53:16.771 --> 00:53:22.751
opportunity to bring a high performance very well made boat into the market

00:53:22.751 --> 00:53:25.291
and see what we can make happen.

00:53:25.491 --> 00:53:29.391
Good. Well, we'll look forward to seeing that come out from Bold Coast. So back to the Scout.

00:53:29.631 --> 00:53:32.391
What's different with the Scout? It's a little 12-foot boat.

00:53:33.164 --> 00:53:36.244
I've rigged it up as if it was a sea kayak okay

00:53:36.244 --> 00:53:39.804
so bulkheads you know good waterproof hatches

00:53:39.804 --> 00:53:42.664
and you know it's intended as a

00:53:42.664 --> 00:53:45.384
recreational kayak i have taken it out to

00:53:45.384 --> 00:53:50.824
the tide races it's a hoot but you know it's intended as you know i i think

00:53:50.824 --> 00:53:56.424
i i forget what the weight came out to you know it's like 30 pounds in wood

00:53:56.424 --> 00:54:02.704
and it might be something that again bold coast boats might bring out in composite at some point.

00:54:02.944 --> 00:54:08.304
It was interesting when I came up with the Scout name, I was,

00:54:08.324 --> 00:54:12.524
you know, looking at the boat and thinking this is sort of a cute little boat.

00:54:12.784 --> 00:54:18.144
And I used chat GPT to just sort of give me some inspiration for names,

00:54:18.344 --> 00:54:22.484
sort of, I gave it sort of a description of the boat and give me some descriptions,

00:54:22.844 --> 00:54:24.264
some names that might fit.

00:54:24.664 --> 00:54:27.704
And, you know, gave a whole list of them and scout

00:54:27.704 --> 00:54:30.924
was one of them and it reminded me of to

00:54:30.924 --> 00:54:34.064
kill a mockingbird okay the the main character or

00:54:34.064 --> 00:54:38.984
one of the main characters is this little girl scout and she was sort of adventurous

00:54:38.984 --> 00:54:45.564
and i just you know somehow the connection that that worked for me and so that

00:54:45.564 --> 00:54:51.404
you know that's kind of what i see this boat as a sporty little you know go

00:54:51.404 --> 00:54:53.684
out and have fun And, you know,

00:54:53.744 --> 00:54:57.964
it'll handle a big paddler, but also be a good boat for a smaller paddler.

00:54:58.224 --> 00:55:01.464
Super. Well, Nick, thank you for joining me. Thank you for sharing your new

00:55:01.464 --> 00:55:03.624
projects. Yeah, thanks for the invitation. All right.

00:55:06.500 --> 00:55:10.280
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So visit paddlingexercises.com to get the book and companion DVD.

00:55:53.060 --> 00:55:56.480
Thanks again to each of the guests who joined me for today's episode and for

00:55:56.480 --> 00:55:58.140
P&H Piranha for the booth space.

00:55:58.580 --> 00:56:02.340
Canoe Copia is always a favorite. It's more than gear. It's the friendships.

00:56:02.640 --> 00:56:05.820
As we emerge from a long winter, it's nice to get together with friends and

00:56:05.820 --> 00:56:07.720
talk about past and future adventures.

00:56:08.060 --> 00:56:11.360
And it's things like this to remind you what a great community of paddlers we

00:56:11.360 --> 00:56:13.480
have around us. Thank you all for being so much fun.

00:56:13.920 --> 00:56:17.940
And thanks to our partners at OnlineSeaKayaking.com and OnlineWhitewater.com

00:56:17.940 --> 00:56:19.520
for extending that special offer to you.

00:56:19.700 --> 00:56:23.720
Again, visit OnlineSeaKayaking.com or OnlineWhitewater.com.

00:56:23.800 --> 00:56:26.820
Take advantage of the great video lessons that James and Simon have assembled.

00:56:26.820 --> 00:56:31.880
Just enter the code PTBpodcast to check out and get 10% off just for being a

00:56:31.880 --> 00:56:33.220
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00:56:33.560 --> 00:56:36.920
Until next time, thanks as always for listening, and I look forward to bringing

00:56:36.920 --> 00:56:39.340
you the next episode of Paddling the Blue.

00:56:41.120 --> 00:56:44.660
Thank you for listening to Paddling the Blue. You can subscribe to Paddling

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the Blue on Apple Music, Spotify, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts.

00:56:49.120 --> 00:56:52.040
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00:56:56.340 --> 00:57:00.600
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00:57:00.880 --> 00:57:03.100
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00:57:03.300 --> 00:57:06.360
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