#134 - Canoecopia 2025 Madison, WI - The annual paddlers family reunion

0:01 Welcome to Paddling the Blue. With each episode, we talk with guests from the Great Lakes and around the globe who are doing cool things related to sea kayaking. I'm your host, my name is John Chase, and let's get started paddling the blue. Welcome to today's episode of Paddling the Blue. Today we return to one of our favorite events of the year and the informal kickoff to the paddling season. We're on the show floor at Canoe Copia in Madison, Wisconsin. Built as the world's largest paddle sports expo, Canoe Scopia, features more than 100,000 square feet of canoes, kayaks, kit, outfitters, everything you can imagine, plus more than 100 speakers on an incredible array of topics, and I am personally honored to be one of those speakers. A big thanks goes out to Chris Hipgrave and the entire P&H Piranha Kayaks team for making space in their booth to record this episode, and of course, for producing my favorite boats.

0:50 We've got a great lineup of guests for today's episode. Today we'll hear from Graham McAereth. Graham is the founder of Piranha Kayaks and the owner of Piranha and P&H. And we're going to talk to Erica Rivers from Wilderness Inquiry. They're a not-for-profit dedicated to get those of all ages and abilities into the wilderness. Vincent Robichaud, founder of Trailtopia, shares how cooking meals for friends turned into cooking even more meals for even lots more friends. Longtime friend Lenore Sabota is going to join us, and she's going to share the return of Ladies of the Lakes. Stig Larsen will be sharing what's happening with the Paddle Sports Trade Coalition and a new initiative to get more people on the water. And speaking of new initiatives, Darren Bush, the chief paddling evangelist with Rutabaga Paddle Sports is going to join us.

1:34 His team produces Canucopia, and he's also going to share a fantastic new program that I am personally excited about. As a reminder, if you're not already a subscriber to OnlineSeaKayaking.com, James and Simon keep on adding to the menu. Visit OnlineSeaKayaking.com. Use the coupon code PTBPODCAST to check out, and you'll get 10% off up to 12 months of your subscription investment. And don't forget, you can also join OnlineWhitewater.com. James and Simon have put that one together, and there's lots of great content out there to help you advance your skills on the rivers as well. Enjoy today's episode from Canoe Copia. Well, I'm joined by Graham McAereth, and Graham is the founder of Piranha Kayaks and the founder and owner of Piranha P&H Kayaks. So welcome, Graham.

2:21 Thank you very much. Yeah, so you were a guest on episode 55. That's going back quite a ways for us. Seems like yesterday. Yeah. Well, it's a pleasure to see you again. We're at Canoe Copia, and I have not seen you at Canoe Copia in the last few years, so it's nice to be able to connect with you today. And we're here in the P&H Piranha Kayaks booth, and it's been a great show. And so, you know, we appreciate the brand being here, and we had a lot of good fans and guests and enthusiasts come by. It's a great show. I haven't been for, well, since pre-COVID, and then pretty much I was here every year before that through, i think to about 2003 or 2004 was probably the first time i came okay it's a wonderful show with wonderful people and a lot of customers we see you know each year and it's just nice to connect with them and it but part of what i do here is just listen and i'm listening looking at what people are wanting and obviously it's my job to try to you know give them the kind of craft that they're going to enjoy their paddling in and i usually take an awful lot of back back with me back to the uk yeah and this morning we got here early before the show and i i saw you talking with chris hipgrave and you were looking looking through boats and probably thinking about design options and you know this is a great opportunity to connect with the people who are using the boats and learn from them what they like and what they'd like to see improved exactly so that's exactly it's at the end of the day it's our job to give people what they want absolutely so that design process,

3:53 I imagine, is pretty iterative over time. And you've been heavily involved in the design of the boats in the line. And one of those that's a personal favorite of mine being a Cetus owner is, of course, the Cetus. And I know that was a favorite of yours. And you'd mentioned earlier that was one of your go-to boats, of course. Tell us a little bit about the process that went into designing the Cetus. Well, before we took over P&H. We've had a close working relationship with dave patrick had been the previous owner and he built one or two of our designs under license but not the sea kite side and so sea kites weren't totally new to us but it was a wonderful opportunity well first of all i took over a tremendous team of people who manufacture the boats and it was also you know wonderful of wonderful opportunity to bring their range and our range together and and so and in fact pnh composite is still just where it always has been with the same team of people.

4:54 We decided that we really wanted a kayak that was a little bit more stable than the Quest, which was the mainstay of the range at the time. And there were certain attributes that we were looking to gain. And the story started out with one of the capellas, effectively, one of the smaller capellas, the 163. It had some very interesting characteristics. Each of the capellas was slightly different, aimed at a slightly different weight profile. And we thought it might be the basis of a longer kayak and so we sort of started with that and it was it was probably the most wonderful of development processes in many ways because the more that we developed it the more benefits that we found in it and previously before that we had a situation where you know most of the sea kayaks were deep v and a lot of people wouldn't find any stability until they were fully loaded up well you know we wanted a boat that was going to be both a good expedition boat but we wanted to be a day paddling boat as well and so personally, i enjoy my sea kayaking and i don't want to lug loads of stuff around in my boat just so it can be stable and so we developed shape and then we were looking for this combination of weight carrying capability and stability.

6:24 And we tried one or two different shapes one of them was where we started to move a little bit more buoyancy out towards the end of the boat and then we found when you lent the boat that suddenly it was spinning around on a dime and it became quite a ballet star and this was a revelation and we also found that because we were going slightly broader and less deep veed there was less windage so it didn't get pushed around as much by the wind and so suddenly we had this boat that very much had two profiles you know if it was paddled upright it was just fast and stable and comfortable handled the waves really nicely but when you lent it it was really quite a ballet star and it just went from one benefit to another it usually when you you develop a kayak you got a name in mind and sometimes it takes a while sometimes you achieve it quite quickly but situs was one that just kept giving and giving and giving and it was just marvelous development process it was wonderful that's fantastic and i'd say you nailed it you know thank you did a great job with it it's and and it true to form like you said it's it's the do everything and you know it's i've heard a lot of folks actually here at the show talking about well well, you know, this boat, I need to add some ballast because it just doesn't feel right if it's unloaded.

7:48 And to be able to have a boat that feels great loaded, feels great unloaded, still performs well in either of those situations. That's definitely good characteristics. Yeah. So now you mentioned the name Cetus. How did, so just specifically that one, how'd you pick that one for that boat? Well, with P&H, they've been looking at constellations for a while. So, you know, we had Orion and Capella. So we just followed the path and looked at the stars. And so we just looked at a constellation and Cetus just stood out for us. All right. But deciding on names is a bit of... When you're deciding something, the name seems all important. I'm not sure that it really is.

8:33 Sometimes you get it right and sometimes you get it wrong. And because we ship boats all around the world, you have to consider the name in various different languages. And sometimes you don't always get it right. So I'll tell you one little story. Sure but it's not on the pnh range it's on the piranha range and so in the early days when we were getting into slalom and i was still quite young my brother was still at school and we developed this really good slalom kayak and it was doing pretty well internationally. Mostly with british paddlers and they were in the top 10 in internationals i went to this this oh and sorry and i said to my brother who was doing german at school german names were very much in vogue at the time what should we call it and after a while he came back and said vedel so i said what's vedel so he says well it's vedeling is skiing through poles and for slalom that was perfect so we spelt it v-e-d-e-l and i went to the first international slalom with it and like i said the brits were doing pretty well with it and every time a german came past he was laughing and by the end of the weekend i was getting a bit of complex and that shame the boat wasn't that bad and it was doing pretty well and and the german coach came past and so i said god why is everybody laughing at the boat he said oh no stop the boat it's the name what's wrong with the name he said well fatal it means a feather duster so i said well i thought it was

10:08 a skiing to. He says, ah, no, that's with a W. And there have been other times when we suddenly found out that it wasn't a very savory name in various languages, so we had to chase them. So P&H's names with the galaxies and constellations has been a fairly safe bet, much safer than some of the others. They translate across different languages. They do. Excellent, excellent. So So do you pick the name as you're designing the boat, or do you generally pick the name after the designing the boat? Varies. Okay. Names are, they either come easily, and it just seems right.

10:49 Or the more people you ask, the more that you get different ideas. And some of them you know are not going to work, but people get quite invested in their suggestion. So sometimes it's quite a painful process. So it's a real mix. A real mix. You try and get a name that's going to be inspirational, that people are going to enjoy the name of the boat. I think we don't do a bad job. Yeah. Does the entire team get involved in that naming process, from designers to builders and everyone in between? Yeah. I mean... We try and keep it tight, but we try and spread it around.

11:31 So not infrequently, we'll go down on the production floor and we'll talk to the people and go, we're thinking about this. What do you think? Or give them two or three options and get them to pick their favorite. So we try and share it around. That's great. It's the same as everything we do. We try and make it as inclusive as possible. We have a great team of people and they all like to contribute. And so we enjoy doing that. Good. So how many are on the team that are building the brand for you? Well, there's about 80 of us. All right. Obviously, you know, we have our U.S. team. Mostly the manufacturing, well, the manufacturers are all done in Britain. All the parts are British. So we don't buy from China or a lot of these Asian countries.

12:13 We like to keep everything in control. And so there's about 80 of us actually in the Piranha P&H teams. All right. Right. Well, thank you for building a fantastic range of boats in both the Piranha and the P&H line, for enthusiasts, by enthusiasts. That's exactly what we are. Thank you very much indeed, Joe. Thank you. Enjoy the rest of the show. Thank you. I will do. I'm joined now by Erica Rivers. And Erica, you're with Wilderness Inquiry. I am. I've been with Wilderness Inquiry for about three years now as the executive director and loving every minute of it. Fantastic. Well, tell us about Wilderness Inquiry and your mission. Yeah, absolutely. So we are a 501c3 nonprofit organization. We've been operating out of the state of Minnesota since 1978, and our mission is to get people of all ages, backgrounds, and abilities into the outdoors so they can benefit from the great opportunities and health and wellness benefits of being outdoors.

13:07 That's fantastic. So how do you go about doing that? Yeah, we offer trips all across the nation and the world, actually. We call it travel with a purpose. So we offer adventure travel to folks at very reasonable, moderate price. We try to hit sort of those mid-range lodging facilities and campgrounds. And then the profit that we make from those adventure travel, we pump back into our programs to bring youth into the outdoors and really connect young people to the outdoors with what we call our Canoe Mobile program, which are our big 10-person North canoes. We put about six of those on a trailer. And we go to, we take our...

13:48 Canoe Mobile trailers to the classrooms, to the kids. So we really try to get them paddling on local waterways that are really close to their backyard so that they have exposure to the natural world right outside their back door. Okay. So who participates in your programs? Yeah. So for our adventure travel programs, it's all ages, backgrounds, and abilities. We provide youth programs for school groups and youth advocacy organizations. We have a model which we call the Pyramid of Outdoor Engagement. And that model really thinks about or contemplates how to get somebody from their backyard all the way out to the back country through a series of progressive opportunities that teach them more skills. Help build their confidence, and actually just, we say, kind of build better people.

14:32 They just are, folks tend to learn that they can do more than they thought they could do when they're adventuring outdoors. So we do a lot with youth-serving organizations, But our clientele is really probably ages fourth grade all the way to I think our oldest participant was actually 92 years old. Wow. That went on a backcountry and abilities. OK, so now you mentioned youth groups. So now it sounds like you create and source your own programs, but then you also work with other organizations that want to create their programs. Absolutely, we do. Yeah. So, you know, we work with a lot of youth advocacy organizations that really are just trying to build a better citizenry for the next generation. People who are going to be the stewards of our natural resources. And also building just basic social-emotional learning and leadership skills in the youth population that have been largely disconnected from the outdoors over time.

15:22 So those kinds of skills are not just for paddle sports. They're not just for outdoor adventure. They're skills for a lifetime. And those skills get built in the medium of the outdoors. Certainly. So now you have especially adaptive equipment and a specially trained staff to be support everybody of all abilities. Absolutely. So we started in 1978, really trying to help people who are experiencing different kinds of disabilities get into the outdoors and have very authentic, meaningful experiences in the outdoors. So we say that we don't really do special trips for special people. What we do is we do really inclusive trips for all people. And so we train our guides to help with various kinds of challenges with ability.

16:03 So folks that are experiencing a disability of some kind, like a physical disability, maybe a cognitive disability, maybe they've gone through a traumatic brain injury. We have our staff especially trained to help support them, have a really meaningful experience in the outdoors in a very integrated, inclusive group setting. Okay, and what types of programming do you offer? Yeah, so we offer in our extended adventures, we do some really great programming in Apostle Islands National Lakeshore, as well as in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness, Voyagers National Park. So those are all, of course, water-based, canoe-based programs. We also do hiking and backpacking programs. Those are Yellowstone National Park. We do those out in Glacier National Park as well as Olympic. So we do lots of different activities.

16:47 And in those cases, when I talk about backyard to backcountry, we're really trying to help people have one to two day experiences near nature, near their home, where they can build some of those skills before we'll take them on an extended adventure out to maybe between four and 14 days in extended backcountry locations. All right. So you mentioned international trips as well. Outside of Canada, of course, Canada being international and a great destination close to home here. What are some of the really ambitious international trips that you've taken on? Yeah, so some of the really fun ones that we're doing, we do a trip every December to New Zealand. We also have a great outfitter we work with in Tanzania and Kenya.

17:30 So we have a trip going in December that's going to be in Tanzania and Zanzibar. We go to Costa Rica and Belize every year. And then not international, still United States, but we have an amazing Hawaii trip that's on the Big Island where we explore Volcanoes National Park, as well as a lot of the indigenous cultural sites on the Big Island. So that's an amazing opportunity to spend some time in the water there as well. That's fantastic. Yeah. How can people learn more about Wilderness Inquiry and the trips that you offer? Yeah, thanks for asking. You just go to www.wildernessinquiry.org, and all of our information about our youth programs is out there, as well as all of our extended adventure information as well. Great. Erica, thank you very much for joining me today.

18:11 My pleasure. Thank you for making the outdoors even more inclusive. Same to you. Thanks. I'm joined now by Vincent Robichaud, and Vincent is with Trailtopia. So, Vincent, tell us what is Trailtopia? Trailtopia makes freeze-dried, dehydrated package meals for backpacking and camping, any backcountry travel. You know, everything is cook in the bag and eat from the bag. You add boiling water to the bag, mix it up, wait 10 minutes, and it's ready to eat. Rinse your spoon off, and you're done with dishes. Okay. So tell us about the company itself. Sure. Trailtopia is a family business. We were founded in 2014. The idea came about on a backpacking trip to the Sawtooth Mountains in Idaho.

18:52 We had about eight of us on the trip, and I had been making food for friends and family when we go on these trips. And... Group I was with said, you know, you make really good food. We think you should share this with other people. And I said, you know what? You come up with a really, you know, come up with a good name for the business and I'll do it. And so they sitting around the campfire, maybe drinking some scotch or something, you know, they came up with the Trailtopia name. And I said, that's a great name. And I literally came back from that trip, registered the domain name and just dove in. I had to learn how to, you know, convert my homemade stuff to commercially viable products, right and and fit in with all the regulations and and that's what we did all right so 11 years ago sitting around a campfire you get basically formed the formed the idea for the business right there exactly exactly right super now and you mentioned uh the booth here you said uh your family was there at the booth yeah my wife my son and my daughter-in-law yeah i have three adult children and they all help out with the business in some way and heck i even have a granddaughter that works at our business on and off.

19:55 So yeah, we're truly a family business. We do, all our food is made from scratch. They're all our own seasoning mixes and everything. So they're basically all my recipes that I created. And anytime that I create something new, it has to get tested through all my family members and they're, we're foodies. So we, they're very picky about the food that we produce. And so nothing goes into a bag until it's passed all the tests of, you know, everybody's giving me comments on it. So we don't make something just to have a product in a bag. It has to be really, really good in order for us to put it in a bag and sell it. Okay. Yeah. I just had a sample of your, was it blueberry peach cobbler? Bag inside. You pull that out. You make the filling with hot water.

20:36 When you're ready to eat it, you sprinkle the crisp over the top. So it's nice and crunchy. And we do the crisp topping from scratch. So like I said, we do pretty much everything from scratch. We even make our own graham crackers from scratch. That's pretty cool. And that sample, it tasted like homemade. It truly did. It does, yeah. Sometimes you get that weird consistency with the fruit that it's just not quite rehydrated enough, and this was good stuff. Good, and I'm glad you liked it. Yeah. So your booth has grown considerably over the years, so I'm guessing the company has as well. Yeah, we've been actually doing pretty good. We are probably in about 600 stores nationwide now. Now, you know, a lot of independent outdoor specialty retailers, you know, that's kind of really our target stores that we choose.

21:20 We're in a distributor, which got us into REI. So, we're in about 140 REI stores now through our distributor. They carry a limited selection of our products, but it's a start. And, you know, we've been growing year on year. And so, I'm happy about that. I quit my corporate job a few years back. So, I'm concentrating fully on Trailtopia. That's great. Now, why, why food? Well, I have a passion for cooking. I grew up with a mother that cooked everything homemade. I mean, she made home. I didn't have a store-bought cookie until I was like nine. I mean, she made everything from scratch. And that just kind of stuck with me. And as I grew up, I started getting more and more into cooking.

22:04 And it's just something I'm really passionate about and passionate about the outdoors. So I combined those two things together, you know, and it worked out. So what are some of your favorite meals from Chaletopia? My favorite, some of my favorite meals, depending on the day, you know, it's if I want spicy or not. Ginger chicken stir fry is not spicy, but it's very flavorful. It's got the nice ginger taste and the soy sauce, you know, from a typical stir fry loaded with veggies. You can see the broccoli. You can see the peas and the mushrooms. You know, you see the ingredients. When you look at our food and you make it, it looks like food. It doesn't look like some brown mush, right? And it tastes great. That's awesome. What's new? What's coming out soon?

22:45 Right now, I'm working on a creamy chicken wild rice soup that really thick, smart rice stew. And so we've got that pretty well nailed down. The wild rice was the hard part because it takes an hour to cook wild rice normally. And so we've had to kind of figure out the best way to do that. So we don't pre-cook our food and our meals and then freeze dry it. Our meals are individually put together with the individual ingredients. And so the first time it's cooked is when the customer cooks it. When you cook it in the bag, that's the first time it's getting cooked, with the exception of the meats. The meats are cooked and then freeze-dried. Okay. Now, for our international guests, do you distribute internationally as well? We sell into Canada just online through our website.

23:30 We don't sell retail in Canada yet. A little tricky because the labeling has to be different than what it is here in the U.S. We've sold into Europe a little bit. Shipping is kind of prohibitive, but... We still have people that want it, and they order it. All right. Where can people learn more about Trailtopia? Well, you can go to Trailtopia.com, and we have our whole story there. And I, at Trailtopia.com, order's over $50. We ship for free. We turn around our shipments really quickly, so you don't have to wait too long. And the meals are great. You know, I have people come back year on year and tell us, you know, good stories about our meals.

24:14 And I've had customers sell other customers our products. I don't even have to do anything. And our desserts are bar none the best on the market, for sure. And all of our meals are very competitive. One of the things that we did when we were making these products, and we said, okay, what can we do? What else can we do besides making really great food? And so we really looked at our packaging, you know, closely. And we turned all of our bags sideways, so they're short and wide. You don't need the extra long spork to get down in there and still get your hands messy. So it's easy to mix, you know, the bag up, you know, the ingredients when you're making it. And it's easy to eat directly from the bag. That's great. Great way to listen to your customer, too. Yeah. All right.

24:56 Vincent, thank you very much. I appreciate that. And congratulations on the success of Trailtopia. Thank you very much. You're welcome. My friend Lenore Sabota has joined me. Lenore, welcome. Thank you. It's good seeing you here. Always good seeing you as well at the family reunion. Right. That's exactly what it is. So we're here to talk about an event that has not been around for, what, eight years or something like that? Right. I think it was 2018 was the last one we had. Yeah. So Ladies of the Lakes. So tell us about what is Ladies of the Lakes? Well, it started, I believe, in 2004 or 2005, and it was basically all women instructors, all women participants. So it was a very welcoming atmosphere where you.

25:38 Were not afraid to just look silly if that's what it turned out to be. And you weren't trying to compete with people that maybe you thought you couldn't measure up to. And by having women instructors as well that provided role models to see maybe you could do a lot more than you thought you could. Yeah, yeah. It was a very successful event. I think they just had some other things that kind of prevented them from keeping that event going. So where was it held? At first, it was actually a traveling exposition that was great because you got to kind of, For those of us from Illinois, we got to find more places along the UP, but that logistically was pretty difficult. So then they settled on Munising, which is the gateway to Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore, which is just an incredible place to explore.

26:22 Okay. So aside from some women as participants, women as instructors, what else makes the event special? The camaraderie. I mean, I made friends with people there that I went on other trips with outside of the symposium. and we ended up starting a tradition of having a theme party. Even though I said that we were all women instructors and participants, we also had some men there that either worked for Downwind Sports or for some of the companies, and Dan Mimongo started one. We had a pajama party one year, and that wound up being so much fun that we kind of continued that with different themes. We've had pirate parties. We've had casino party. We've had superhero party and this one coming up, the theme is going to be Looney Tunes and any cartoon character you can imagine.

27:08 So I got to start thinking what my costume is going to be. Yeah, I know that participants have thought about that for months in advance and trying just to perfect that costume. Absolutely. One of the big highlights. So now, so you attended as a participant initially. And so tell us about your start with Ladies of the Lake and then kind of how you grew from there. Well, the funny part, I knew Bill Thompson from Downwind Sports, the sponsor, through ice climbing. They have a Michigan Ice Fest. And I was at Ice Fest, and I mentioned that I had just started kayaking. At that point, I didn't even own a sea kayak or anything. I was just a beginner. And he was like, you're kayaking now? We got a festival for you. And so that's what got me going there. And believe me when I say, literally, I was still afraid of water at that time.

27:52 They were trying to teach me how to roll. And they actually had to get me out of the boat because I was so rigid in the boat because I was so nervous. They had to get me out of the boat. But that was one of the things that was special about Ladies of the Lake is it was very individualized. Instructors working with you one-on-one, if that's what it took. And so the funny thing about it or amazing thing about it is I went from being that scared participant in 2006, I think it was that I was there, to eventually actually becoming a kayak instructor and being able to pass along the knowledge. And especially with participants who were as afraid as I was at that first symposium, I could really relate and help them relax and see, like, this is what you can do, even if you're afraid of everything.

28:33 Yeah, that's fantastic. What a great growth experience. Definitely. Yeah. So where has that taken you from there? Well, I've been an instructor both there with Ladies of the Lake and also at the Door County Sea Kayak Symposium that Rutabaga sponsored. In fact, that's where I got my training to be an instructor was through them. I basically have paddled or taught in Lake Huron, Lake Michigan, Lake Superior. So I've really got to travel around different places I probably wouldn't have gone if I hadn't gotten involved with that. Great. I'm also just an avid outdoors person. I love birding. I love photography. And kayaking has got me into areas that you can't get on foot.

29:15 I mean, birds will fly away if you're crunching through the leaves. You float up in a boat and you get really close. You get some really good pictures, just good experiences. Great. So I know one thing about you is that you meticulously track your activity. So how many active days did you have in 2024? for? I don't remember offhand, but I basically, I try at least five days a week. I try to get out if it's just for a hike on a, I've got a hiking, biking trail that's just a couple blocks from my house. So I try to get out at least, like I said, about five out of seven days I get out there. And one of the things I've always said, even if I didn't feel like it or the weather's bad, I said, well, give yourself 15 minutes.

29:56 If it's still not good, then okay, go ahead and go back home and very very seldom have i ever regretted going out but there's been times i regretted not going out yeah yeah nobody ever came back from a from a bike ride or from a paddle trip and said gee i wish i didn't take that ride right that bike you know i suppose it's possible if it was something for example i had a day where i wasn't feeling well i was with with my good friend ann and i was like well i'm not sure how long i can go let's try it out and basically 15 minutes into the paddle it was i said i can't do this my leg hurts and so we turned around went back but i still don't regret going right and i was with somebody who i trusted if i was going to get into trouble she'd been to ladies of the lakes symposium so i knew she knew how to do rescues and she knew how to tow me if she had to that's right unfortunately it didn't come to that yeah so what else would you want people to know about ladies of the lakes it's it's for all all skill levels it's if if you're just a ranked beginner you can come if you're very experienced for this festival that's coming up, they're going to have, real tranquil paddles as well as, something for those who want to get more challenged.

31:02 So that's one of the big things I think people need to know. And also, it's a very safety-oriented group. So they're not going to be getting you out there in conditions that you shouldn't be in. And the big thing is just. Fun. I made, like I said, so many good friends there that I've been lasting friends that I've done other trips with. And it's just been, it helped me grow. Like I said, I started out as someone, I would never have dreamed that I was going to become an instructor. And that has been so rewarding. Really excited to hear about the progress that Ladies of the Lake's helped you make. I know that there's so many others here that have had great experiences with it well. And if somebody's looking for Ladies of the Lake, they can go to downwindsports.com and see more information about it as well as register.

31:46 And it is going to be August 15 through 17, 2025. And then let's hope it's back in future years as well. That'll be great. Thanks, Lenar. Thanks, Sean. I'm here with Stig Larson. Welcome, Stig. Hi, thanks for having me again. Stig, you've been a multi-time guest. You're always a favorite here at Canoe Copia and I always enjoy having you come here. And so president of Level 6? Yes, still going strong. Yeah. So you are also the chair of the board of the Palsports Trade Coalition. Yeah. So tell us about the trade coalition. Trade coalition is, you know, it's been multi-years in the running, but we became official last year. The Palsports Trade Coalition is a not-for-profit that is made up of all the people involved in the industry.

32:29 So brands, retailers, outfitters, sales reps, and media associates, and clubs and schools, with the singular goal of, you know, growing unity in paddle sports, making the industry healthier, growing participation. Yeah, and just being able to be able to kind of a unified voice amongst all stakeholders in the industry. Okay. And so you've got some initiatives coming up, one in particular that's going to happen in June this year. Tell us about that. Yeah, it's been pretty exciting. Like last, I was in Strasbourg at a trade show last fall, and I was just kind of thinking of ideas, like what we could do to kind of really get grassroots growth and introduce people into paddle sports ultimately. Ultimately and so we're launching the first national go paddle day which is on june 14th it's a saturday with the goal of all the brands retailers outfitters sales reps media association schools all getting together and promoting the call to action to get back into paddle sports if you've kind of lapsed for a bit or go and enjoy a special day of paddle sports and bring a friend and kind of introduce them into what's special about paddle sports and ideally you know they fall in love with it and they get as much out of it as everyone in this, you know, I can you copy it's gotten out of it.

33:34 All right. So how will, how will that roll out around the country? We're actually around the world i guess right yeah we're doing national this year okay but certainly there has been quite a bit of talk from europe but kind of maybe doing something more international what's going to happen is so we launched it officially yesterday there's a website that gopaddleday.com and what will happen is all the different people who are going to have an event will be able to host their event on that website and you'll be able to link on there and see which one's close to you and all the the ptc the paddle sports trade coalition is going to be marketing out through a unified push of what this event can do for you, the health benefits, that whole camaraderie of it, and allowing retailers who have activities, maybe a barbecue or a free demo day, or a guest speaker coming in to link up to the end paddler to come in and check that whole scene out.

34:28 Okay. And is there a way you're tracking participation or something? So at the end, you know, we have had 4 million people on the water or something of that type? Yeah, we're definitely doing, you know, there's going to be some unique hashtags out there. We're also doing a prize pack. So we're going to look at about 150 different vendors and brands within the Palsport space. We're going to be posting up prizes. So if you know the best picture or the most number of participants at an event, you'll be able to get it. You'll win a prize, like let's say like a level six dry suit or something like that. And we'll send directly to you. Very nice. So how's the show been for you? It's been good, actually. I mean, every year we come here and we always launch, you know, what new things are coming down the line. Get to talk about some of the innovation that we are working on, you know, new fabrics, you know, our sustainability quest, you know, we're 100% PFAS free on our products now, almost all recycled fabrics.

35:18 So again, you can talk to the consumer about that. And then also even better, I love about Knucopia is the ability for the consumers to give us feedback on where we maybe, maybe we missed the boat on something or we need to be, you know, focusing more on this because that's a category that we're thinking about. So yeah, it's always good to come here. Excellent. And you've got some things in the development as far as new fabrics and new products. We do. Yeah. I mean, I'd say it's probably the biggest innovation cycle that Level 6 has ever done. I started the company when I was 24 years old. We've been around for 27 years now. And this is our biggest push in what's, you know, kind of hopefully trying to redefine what Paddle Sports equipment will be for the next decade. And you'll start seeing that come out in our line this fall and then next spring.

36:00 And then in 2027 will be a substantial launch of what we're coming down that. New product launches. That's fantastic. Stig, thank you very much. I appreciate you joining me. How can people find out more about Go Paddle Day and the Paddle Sports Trade Coalition? Yeah, I mean, the easiest way is to go to paddlesportstradecoalition.org. And that's the main site where we host all of our different initiatives, what we're all about, you know, what brands are involved, what retailers, outfitters are involved, and sales reps, how to become a member if you're one of those categories to help support what we're trying to accomplish. And within there, you'll be able to see the PTC CoLab, which is an event we hold in September, which is an AGM or a round table, if you will, of all the principles involved in trying to get paddle sports to be in a stronger place.

36:43 And then, of course, our new Go Paddle Day. It's all involved up there. Fantastic. Well, thanks for the work that you're doing with the Paddle Forks Trade Coalition. Thanks for your work that you're doing with Level 6, as well as making sure we're protecting our environment and delivering great products. Thank you. Awesome. Thanks for having me again. And of course, people can always visit level6.com to learn more about you and your products. Yes. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Thank you. Bye. A big welcome to Darren Bush. Darren, thank you for joining us. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So Darren is the owner of Rutabaga Paddle Sports. So again, we're here at Canucopia and this is your baby along with your team's baby. Thank you for saying it that way. Yeah. It's my baby, but I have a lot of babysitters. Yes. And you've got a great team that has put together another fantastic event as we start to reach the close of the event here.

37:27 Yeah. They're the best people I know. Yeah. I really love my staff. They're fantastic. Absolutely. So how's the show been for you? It's been good. I'm exhausted. Yeah. More, the more so there's, there's a few hiccups with border stuff and tariffs and trying to figure all that out, you know, it's. Everybody that I've talked to is happy. I've probably had more high fives and hugs this show than any other. And I think part of that is because of the political climate, right? It's been so much division and just negativity. And they're like, in this room, there's like a circle of keep negatives out, positives in. So that's been a big part of the show is people are very happy and very positive. They are enjoying the camaraderie and the community because, you know, at the end of the day, we're all paddlers. That's right.

38:11 We're all here to have a good time. We're all here to see our friends and all here to plan for the coming year to make great things happen. And speaking of great things happening now, Door County Sea Kayak Symposium ran for 20 years. And unfortunately, there was a mishap with the venue on that. Burning it to the ground is a mishap. Yes, it is. So while that was disappointing, that gave you the opportunity to kind of sit back and say, how did we reinvent this thing? So how has it been reinvented? So here's how it, here's the process of how it works. So first I'm like, okay, so Door County Sea Kayak Symposium is awesome. We love it, right? It's great. We've been doing it 20 years. And like, you know, we looked around Door County to find another spot and there was no place that had the same access to water, the same amount of housing in one spot.

38:57 And one of the things that makes Door County special, that made Door County special is the community involved in being in one location and having that central locus of community. So there's no place else to do it. So last June, no, July, I'm up in Boulder Junction and my, my wife and I rent the best cabin in the world up there. You know, somebody else's, right? So we rent it for a week and we spend a little bit of money. And then when the septic blows up, we just go, yep, bye. So that was great. And I'm paddling around on Trout Lake. Trout Lake's five miles long and three miles wide. And I'm like a little bit of wind shot. I said, we could teach sea kayaking here. Easy. I mean, and a lot of the stuff we teach at Door County is on inland lakes for the beginners, right?

39:40 So why not do it here? I'm like, okay, cool. And I'm thinking, you know what? Recreational kayakers get no love, right? Sea kayakers sometimes will snobbly make fun of them. It's like a stupid little wreck boat, blah, blah, blah. Those people are just as much paddlers as we are. Absolutely. They're part of the community. They deserve respect. They also deserve instruction, right? Because it's like, oh, it's just a wreck boat. You get in and go. I said, you know, most of the fatalities and injuries that happen in kayaks are recreational kayaks. They're not sea kayakers, right? They know how to handle their boat and where to go. But the wreck boaters, they don't know what they don't know. And I put it out there and said, you know what? Those people deserve some love too. And then I'm paddling around in my canoe on some of these little lakes up there.

40:24 And I'm like, why not have canoes there too? And I'm thinking, well, why not have canoes there? Because there's a lot of, you know, crossover. where there's people that only kayak, people that only canoe. That's just dumb. So why don't we have a place where if they want to, they can cross over? So we have classes... So anyway, so we created this thing, Camp Rutabaga. So I went up north with Al Fairfield, who's one of the instructors at Kenyacovia, who lives up that way. And he knows the area cold. I said, let's go look at some venues. So we went to Camp Manitowish in Boulder Junction. And I said, we're not looking anywhere else. This place is awesome. So it's on the water. They have a big, beautiful dining hall instead of a tent.

41:04 They're round family-style tables where people can sit around and talk. Because, you know, one of the limitations of Door County is, you know, long skinny mess hall tables. You can talk to three people, right? And these round tables, it's going to be canoeists and kayakers and everybody just like, so what'd you do today? I learned how to paddle canoe. That's cool. We have classes paddling kayak for the canoeist and paddling the canoe for the kayakers. So they can each, for very low risk, go out for three or four hours and say, you know what? This is kind of cool. So, I mean, there's places where kayaks are better than the canoes and there's places where canoes are better than kayaks. And, well, more appropriate is probably a better way to look at it, right? So why not give those people the chance to try things out and see what it's like? And they may go, yeah, okay, canoeing's cool, but it's not for me.

41:48 Or they may go, I could use this. This is cool. Paddling in the winter, fall getting in and out of a muddy stream bank and a kayak is not so much fun sometimes, right? But in a canoe, it's easy to get in and out. So you come to a log jam, getting through a log jam and a kayak, kind of tricky, you know? So there's times and places for both, so why not have them in the same spot? And I knew that it was a good idea when I got a Facebook post from a woman who said, you know what, I'd love Door County for years. I'm getting older, I'm getting wider, I don't fit in a sea kayak anymore. And so I got a rec kayak and I always felt a little bit like I was, you know, getting a downgrade. I said, absolutely not. You know, you are part of us, you are still part of us and you are welcome and we'll do rescues in Recbo.

42:36 It won't be pretty, but they'll learn that it's not pretty and maybe decide based on where I'm going, I'm going to get a boat with some bulkheads. Right. Or realize that, you know, then I can't take this boat to that environment. Right. I can't go to Sam Bay, right? I can't go on the Apostles. I can't go on Lake Superior. But I can paddle 20 feet from the shore of any lake I want to. And, you know, usually my recommendation to rec boaters is never paddle farther than the shore that you're willing to swim and pull your boat. Because that will always work right and go out when it's warm don't go out when it's chilly, and you know use a spray skirt when it's windy and and you're perfectly fine right so know the limitations of yourself and your equipment and they might go i'm good this i'm good like this i just have a little pond by my house i just paddle around and i'm happy as a clam so but they might decide you know maybe a kayak's cool maybe a pack boat's cool right because a pack boat's just a kayak without a top on it yep and when it comes down to it at the end of the day.

43:33 We're all paddlers. We're all looking to have fun on the water. Why not all come together and experience something different? Absolutely right. Yeah. I love the idea of the bucking, the conventional wisdom that it has to be one type of craft, one type of thing at the location. Let's just get out there and have fun and enjoy. Bucking conventional wisdom is in my job description, right? And it might flop spectacularly, but we open registration like Thursday. day. I'm madly coding and putting stuff on the backside so we can open it. And I ran into like 15 people. I said, yeah, we're signing up already. I've heard lots of buzz here at the show. So how can people learn more if they're interested in joining us? Well, interestingly, I bought the URL Everyone Paddles when I created the Door County Symposium, when we created the Door County Symposium, our team did.

44:19 And so we just reused it because Everyone Paddles, it's actually better, right? So they type in Everyone Paddles, it takes them to the Camp Rutabaga page. They can read about it they can look at the course offerings and they can sign up cool and i love the camp name too it's it's it you know we for years we've referred to it as adult summer camp and now you're just symposium sounds stuffy i hate the term symposium the problem is we inherited it right someone called it a symposium 30 years ago and it just stuck it's not a symposium symposium is an academic thing this is a camp right this is just having fun but because of the the dining hall and the kitchen there. We can, you know, dinner's included just like it was at Door County.

45:01 But if someone wants breakfast and lunch, they can click on a button and sign up for it and not have to worry about, you know, trying to find a place to eat. So I, it's, it's not perfect, but it's dang close to perfect. Yeah. That's fantastic. Darren, thank you very much for joining us. Thanks for, for all you do with Rutabaga. Thanks for all the entire team does to make Canoe Copia such a wonderful event and really looking forward to Camp Rutabaga as well. Thank you so much. I'm very grateful for this opportunity. Thank you. If you want to be a stronger and more efficient paddler, Power to the Paddle is packed with fitness guidance and complete descriptions, along with photos of more than 50 exercises to improve your abilities and enjoy your time on the water.

45:42 The concept and exercises in this book have helped me become a better paddler, and they can make a difference for you too. The exercises in the book can help you reduce tension in your shoulders and low back, use the power of your torso to create leverage and use less energy with each stroke, use force generated from your lower body to make your paddling strokes more efficient, Have the endurance to handle long days in the boat, drive through the toughest waves or white water, protect your body against common paddling injuries, and while you're at it, you might even lose a few pounds. And who wouldn't mind that? So visit paddlingexercises.com to get the book and companion DVD. Canucopia is so much more than gear. It's so much more than a trade show. It's about the relationships. It's about the friends. As we emerge from a long winter, it's nice to get together with friends and talk about past and future adventures together. and there's things like this to remind you what a great community of paddlers we have around us. Thank you all for being so much fun.

46:35 I always enjoy checking out the show floor and finding new things, organizations doing good things for paddlers and events that you might be interested in attending and I hope you enjoyed hearing from today's guests. Get out on Go Paddle Day, June 14. We'll include information on our socials as it becomes available and I will be at Camp Rutabaga in September and I hope to see you there too. Thanks as always to our partners at OnlineSeaKayaking.com and Online Whitewater for extending that special offer to you. Visit OnlineSeaKyking.com or OnlineWhitewater.com and take advantage of the great video lessons that James and Simon have assembled. Just enter the code PTBPODCAST to check out and get 10% off just for being a member of the Paddling the Blue community.

47:15 Until next time, thanks again for listening, and I look forward to bringing you the next episode of Paddling the Blue. Thank you for listening to Paddling the Blue. You can subscribe to Paddling the Blue on Apple Music, Spotify, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. Please take the time to leave us a five-star review on Apple Music. We truly appreciate the support. And you can find the show notes for this episode and other episodes, along with replays of past episodes, contact information, and more at paddlingtheblue.com. Until next time, I hope you get out and paddle the blue. Music.