#160 - Quiet Adventures 2026 Live: Adaptive Kayaks, Orienteering Worlds, River Stewardship, and more from Lansing, MI

WEBVTT

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Welcome to Paddling the Blue. With each episode, we talk with guests from the

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Great Lakes and around the globe who are doing cool things related to sea kayaking.

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I'm your host, my name is John Chase, and let's get started paddling the blue.

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Welcome to today's episode of the Paddling the Blue podcast.

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We are back at one of our favorite events, the Quiet Adventures Symposium in Lansing, Michigan.

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And Quiet Adventures is a celebration of quiet sports like ours.

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As paddlers, when we hear symposium, we often think of on-water education experiences,

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but this one is different.

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It's more like a trade show with a Great Lakes region emphasis.

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But even if you're not from Michigan or even the USA or our neighbors in Canada,

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I'm certain that you'll find some value in hearing from today's guests.

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It's a mix of quiet sports and activities like paddling, biking, hiking, and more.

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And there's great representation from conservation-focused organizations as well.

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So our guests today include representatives from Team River Runner,

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Michigan Clean Water Corps, Opportunities Unlimited for the Blind,

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the Flint River Watershed Coalition, League of Michigan Bicyclists,

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Michigan Department of Natural Resources, and a special one,

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a junior orienteer talking about her experience at the World Championships in Italy.

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All these organizations and individuals are working to excite our outdoor enthusiasts,

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protect our waterways, and keep our Great Lakes beautiful.

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Before we get to today's adventures, one thing I don't do very well is letting

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you know about my programming.

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So if you'd like to see some more of the skills programs, instructor certifications,

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workshops, CPR classes, wilderness first aid,

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guided trips, and more that I run, visit www.paddlingtheblue.com and click the

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Courses and Trips link at the top of the page to learn more.

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And James Stevenson and I'm Simon Osborne at OnlineSeaKayaking.com continue

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to produce great content to help you evolve as a paddler and as a coach.

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You'll find everything from basic strokes and safety to paddling in tides,

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surfing, coaching, documentaries and expedition skills and incident management and more.

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So if you're not already a subscriber to OnlineSeaKayaking.com,

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here's your opportunity to get started.

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Visit OnlineSeaKayaking.com, use the coupon code PTBpodcast to check out and

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you'll get 10% off just for being a member of the Paddling the Blue community.

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And while you're there, be sure to visit the community section where you'll

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find an interview with me.

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Thanks to Simon and Daniel for hosting me on their meetup.

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Enjoy the live show floor energy in today's episode from the Quiet Adventures Symposium.

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All right, I'm joined by Anna Green and Anna is a member of Team USA and she's

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also with the Southern Michigan Orienteering Club and Team USA Orienteering.

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So, Anna, you participated in the 2025 Junior World Championships for orienteering.

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I did. It was in Trentino, Italy.

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Wow, that's fantastic. So tell us about the experience.

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It was probably the greatest experience of my life. It was...

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Exploring foreign woods, spending time with athletes across the world who spend

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time with compasses and topographical maps. And that's just what they're passionate about.

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I got to meet so many other juniors of my age from any country you could imagine.

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Got to see the world and experience the cultures of Italy, the Dolomite Mountain Range.

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Yeah, it was quite the experience. That is really cool. How did you get into

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orienteering? My parents got me into it when I was really young.

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We are from Southern Michigan Orienteering Club, and they are very passionate about it.

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They met through orienteering, and I picked it up.

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I'm a runner, so I have a passion for running, and maps fascinate me,

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terrain, contour lines, features, and compasses.

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It's a big interest to me. So combining all of them together and racing is like

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the perfect sport for me.

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Absolutely. So those who aren't familiar with orienteering, tell us a little

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bit about what is orienteering.

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Orienteering, it's a navigational sport with topographical map and a compass.

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And you're running from point to point in the woods as fast as you can.

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It's a race. But if you just want to get out in the woods and explore, you can do that as well.

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You are reading terrain and choosing routes in the woods based off contour lines,

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features like are you going around a lake, around a river.

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You are proving you are there by checkpoints on the map.

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And it's a special map, too. So it's not just your standard topographical map

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that you'd be able to buy. It's a special orienteering map that's very detailed.

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Right. So USGS maps are sort of the basis. They show contour lines.

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Orienteering maps, they go down to like boulders, boulders, deep details, every bend in the trail,

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They're just very detailed. They'll show you significant trees,

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rootstocks, anything that helps you navigate in the woods, because that's where the checkpoints are.

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And you also, when you're given an orienteering map, you're given a clue sheet,

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which also have those features on them.

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So you mentioned earlier your experience at Worlds. Tell us a little bit more about that.

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Tell us a little bit more about that. So Worlds was at first overwhelming because

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here I was racing in a foreign country.

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I've never been there before the competition is huge

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and the other athletes are insanely

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fast because it's mainly it's a huge European

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sport they grow up doing it they they're incredible

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so you see them training and racing they're

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sprinting as hard as they can through the woods while reading a map so fluently

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while I still learning I have so much to learn still about orienteering So it

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was eye-opening experience to see how good other athletes in the world are and

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how advanced orienteering can be.

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The orienteering in Europe and Italy was much more technical,

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much hillier, is very different woods and terrain than we have in Michigan.

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So I was excited.

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Involved in something completely different than what I'm used to.

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So it was a huge learning experience, but the people and the food and the views, it was just incredible.

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That's fantastic. Now, you're planning to go back for 2026. I am.

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So I have trials next month coming up here in March in Maryland.

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And based on how well I compete there, there's three days of racing,

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determines who races in Sweden this summer for Jaywalk 2026.

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Wow. Sweden, that's amazing. It would be quite the experience.

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All right. So tell us, how do people get involved in orienteering in the U.S. and in Michigan?

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Well, in Michigan, we only have one club. It's Southern Michigan Orienteering Club.

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You can look up smockruns.com and find meets.

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They're in parks all over Southern Michigan.

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Find one close to you show up we have free

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si sick rental free compass rental and anyone

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there is so happy that people are getting involved that

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we will teach you we're so happy to teach you even bring you into the woods

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show you how to orienteer in the u.s there's some huge groups on the east coast

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and west coast there's even like in in the state of washington they have a school

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team they just Join a local group and have people teach you.

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Orienteering community is so, the people are so down to earth and just happy

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you're there. Happy to expand the sport.

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Anyone's happy to help you. Super. Well, thank you very much.

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We will make sure we put links in the show notes to Southern Michigan Orienteering

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Club so people can come check that out.

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And then we'll also wish you the best in 2026 in Sweden.

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So thanks for joining me. Awesome. Thank you for having me.

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I'm joined by Jamie Welch. And Jamie, you're with the Flint River Watershed Coalition?

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Yes, I am. All right. So, excellent. Tell us a little bit about what is the

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Flint River Watershed Coalition?

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The Flint River Watershed Coalition, our mission is to protect,

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promote, and improve the Flint River.

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And we do that through a variety of programs. We do water quality testing.

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We have youth educational programs where we take Middalen High School students

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out to the streams and they do chemical testing.

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We do testing in response to spills when we find out about those.

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Additionally, we do cleanups. We have a stewardship day coming up on May 2nd,

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and that will be at 10 different sites across Genesee County.

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And it's where we go out to our parks and spaces along the river,

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and we pick up trash and clean it and get it ready for the summer.

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That's super. Now, we've got listeners all over the world. And so for people's

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reference, Flint River Watershed Coalition is in Flint, Michigan.

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And so that's where the river is as well, of course. Yep.

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It runs through downtown Flint, and it actually touches seven different counties.

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And a big part of our programming is we do paddle programs to get people out

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and introduce them to their river because the reputation, when people hear the

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Flint River, they think of downtown Flint. Okay. And they don't fit.

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The true beauty of this river, of all of the natural resources that we have,

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the wild animals, we have bald eagles and mink and beaver and all of that.

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And it's this beautiful resource and people come down and they see it and then they want to protect it.

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We're sneaky. We get them on the river, they fall in love, and then they want to protect it.

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And that seems we get so many wonderful stewards from our paddling programs.

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So when people say watershed, define a watershed.

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So a watershed, think of a bathtub, and all of the water that hauls into that

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bathtub from the showerhead all collects at the bottom.

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Anywhere that water touches is what is considered a watershed.

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So for us, we actually, it's the Flint River watershed, but we cover seven different

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counties and we work outside of Flint.

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Our work is not just inside of Flint, Michigan. We do all over Genesee,

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LaPierre and those additional country counties that we touch.

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Okay, so that watershed, if I'm not mistaken, all the water from those areas

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drains to and from and to the Flint River.

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Yep, so it all drains into the Flint River and then the Flint River actually

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drains up into the Shiawassee National Refuge and the Saginaw Bay and then ends

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up in the Lake Eras. So it's all connected.

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Thing when people say, when we talk about drinking water and sources,

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it's remembering that there's this connectedness.

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What you throw in the water here might end up in your drinking water eventually

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because it will get there someday. Right, right.

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So now you mentioned you have a programming as well, and they do a lot of programming

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for people of all ages, but you do programming for people of all abilities as well.

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I do, I do. That is my absolute favorite program that we have.

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In 2017, the Disability Network approached us and they had gotten a small micro-tourism

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grant and wanted to do adaptive kayak.

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So I went up and they used that money to get me certified and we started in

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2018 our iCayak program.

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And that is where we take people of all abilities, seniors, anyone who has any

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kind of mobility or feel like they have a limitation and we get them out on

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the wall. And we do it at their pace.

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It's all individualized. We have workshops where we work one-on-one with people.

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To get them comfortable and to find out what they want out of the course. Are they looking?

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Some people just want to get on the water. They just want to paddle.

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They might want someone else to paddle and be in the kayak with them.

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And they're not looking for that.

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There's no goal in mind. It's just getting on the water. And then we have the

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people that come in and they want to do something.

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We've had participants that were doing a kayak trip in Alaska and they were

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trying to figure out how to work their disability, work around that and get it to do.

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So we've been running that program for about eight years.

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And it has been wonderful. We partner with Genesee County Parks and some of

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our other local organizations, and we hold workshops all summer long.

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And then we also, if you've attended one of our adaptive workshops and want

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to come on one of our regular guided trips, we will provide a guide for you.

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With you the entire time you're on the water. And we're excited this year to

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also offer open paddles for our iCayak elves.

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We're finding that they love the lessons, but they still need some more support

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to make sure that they can get in on the water their own.

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So having those open paddles gives them a chance to paddle with other people

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who also are using that adaptation or different adaptations and get that confidence

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and skill to go out and do it on their own if they use.

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That's fantastic. Ed, congratulations on getting that opportunity,

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and thank you for performing that service.

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Paddling is for everyone, and it's groups like yours and programs like yours

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that make sure that happens. So thank you very much. Thank you.

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How can people learn more about the Flint River Watershed Coalition and your programming?

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So you can find us at flintriver.org or at kayakflint.org, and we are located

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in the heart of downtown Flint. All right.

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Thank you very much, Jamie. I appreciate you joining me. Thank you.

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I'm joined by Eric Wallace, and Eric is with Opportunities Unlimited for the

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Blind. Welcome, Eric. Hello.

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Thank you for joining me today. So tell us a little bit about Opportunities

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Unlimited for the Blind.

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Well, we run summer camps for kids who are blind or visually impaired.

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We're located in Grand Rapids, and we teach them things like social skills, daily living skills.

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We really focus on kitchen skills because for someone who can't see.

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Cutting can be a struggle. and getting things out of the oven can be a struggle.

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Literally anything sharp or anything with.

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And in addition to the day camps, you also, I'm sorry, it's a day camp or resident

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camp? It's an overnight camp.

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Excellent. We sleep in tents, but we also have buildings with air conditioning,

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so it's not completely roughing it. Okay.

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So you're teaching daily living skills, but then you're also doing that in a

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camp environment, so they're getting that experience as well.

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Yes. That's super. Okay.

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And then you do some off-site programming as well.

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Yes. Every summer, we go on an adventure trip.

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This summer, we're going to be going kayaking in Lake Itasca and Minnesota.

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So that's super. And you've done some other trips, Apostle Islands?

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Yes, we've been to the Apostle Islands. We've been kayaking down the Mississippi River.

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Wow. That's quite an experience. Yep. So how do you put those trips together?

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We work with Chicago Adventure Therapy as well during our adventure trips.

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So, we run in single kayaks, and then they help lead us. Usually,

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how many are in the group?

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Usually, we have about eight.

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And this is not only day trips, but you're taking a multi-day wilderness trip

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to the Apostle Island. Yes.

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All right. And so there's a pretty significant amount of training that would

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need to go into that process to make sure that you can effectively support everyone.

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Yeah. Absolutely. That's very cool.

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Like the first day of the adventure trip is all training, making sure they're ready.

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How long has Opportunities Unlimited for the Blind been in existence?

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In existence since 1994.

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I'm glad you were able to provide that service And definitely appreciate that

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service How can people learn more about Opportunities Unlimited for the Blind?

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I think people can learn more about Opportunities Unlimited for the Blind By visiting our website,

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That's www.oubmichigan.org Super,

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Eric, thank you very much I appreciate your time Thank you Yeah,

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thank you for telling us about Opportunities Unlimited for the Blind And I really

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hope some of our guests will go check it out And see if they can help and support

00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:32.699
you Alright, thank you Thank you.

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Joe Letimore from MyCorps has joined me here. So, Joe, welcome.

00:15:37.499 --> 00:15:40.579
Thank you. Yeah, thanks for joining me. So, tell us a little bit about what

00:15:40.579 --> 00:15:44.759
is MyCorps. Sure. MyCorps is short for the Michigan Clean Water Corps.

00:15:45.119 --> 00:15:49.179
So, my is MI as the abbreviation for Michigan, the state of Michigan.

00:15:49.599 --> 00:15:53.419
And that is our statewide volunteer lake and stream monitoring program.

00:15:53.679 --> 00:15:55.959
Lake and stream monitoring. What happens with that?

00:15:56.279 --> 00:16:01.199
Sure. So we work with volunteers from all over the state to collect data about

00:16:01.199 --> 00:16:06.099
how healthy or unhealthy the lake or stream they're interested in in Michigan really is.

00:16:06.279 --> 00:16:10.739
And so they're really two separate programs and we use different methods to

00:16:10.739 --> 00:16:13.719
assess the health of lakes and streams across the state.

00:16:13.879 --> 00:16:19.319
But all of them are done in very volunteer friendly, hands on ways that people

00:16:19.319 --> 00:16:22.579
can collect data about the health of their lake or stream and then use that

00:16:22.579 --> 00:16:25.159
to help protect them. Yeah. So how does that help protect people?

00:16:25.751 --> 00:16:29.871
So knowing the health of your lake or stream really helps you make decisions

00:16:29.871 --> 00:16:31.531
about what might need to be done.

00:16:31.711 --> 00:16:37.071
Let's say you're on a lake and you collect water quality data on it and it looks

00:16:37.071 --> 00:16:38.611
really good. Your lake is really healthy.

00:16:38.991 --> 00:16:42.351
Well, that means somebody is doing something right, right? We're doing the right things.

00:16:42.531 --> 00:16:45.771
There aren't probably major threats or disturbances affecting that lake.

00:16:45.931 --> 00:16:49.171
And so the idea then would be we need to protect this.

00:16:49.331 --> 00:16:53.191
Let's keep it as healthy as it is now. And so you can do things,

00:16:53.351 --> 00:16:55.151
focus more on conservation and protection.

00:16:55.711 --> 00:16:58.711
But if you collect data that tells you that your lake is unhealthy,

00:16:59.091 --> 00:17:01.631
then you may look to see, okay, what's the problem?

00:17:01.931 --> 00:17:06.891
Do we need to address invasive species or is there pollution making its way into the lake?

00:17:07.051 --> 00:17:11.431
But, you know, having real data, real numbers helps you work with decision makers,

00:17:11.631 --> 00:17:14.711
with funders, and even to get other people in your community interested.

00:17:15.011 --> 00:17:18.271
It's one thing to say, oh, the lake doesn't look healthy. It's another thing

00:17:18.271 --> 00:17:20.411
to say, we have data that shows that it's not.

00:17:20.551 --> 00:17:24.171
And the same thing is for the streams and rivers. Okay, so I hear people say,

00:17:24.291 --> 00:17:27.011
well, that looks clear, it looks clean, so it must be clean.

00:17:27.011 --> 00:17:29.171
So what kinds of things are you looking for that would tell you,

00:17:29.311 --> 00:17:32.391
even if it looks clean, that it might not necessarily be? Sure.

00:17:32.711 --> 00:17:36.311
So we do look at the clarity of the lake, but we even know that,

00:17:36.431 --> 00:17:41.031
for example, or rivers, but in a lake that has zebra mussels,

00:17:41.271 --> 00:17:44.551
it might look really clear because the zebra mussels eat all the algae that's

00:17:44.551 --> 00:17:47.171
in the water and make it unnaturally clear.

00:17:47.171 --> 00:17:52.051
And so that's why we like to look at more than one feature of a lake or a river,

00:17:52.231 --> 00:17:56.311
because it's all interconnected. These are ecosystems. They're complicated.

00:17:57.349 --> 00:18:01.469
Collecting one type of data is good. Collecting two or three types of data is even better.

00:18:01.669 --> 00:18:06.489
Or in terms of our stream monitoring, we mainly look at the insects that live

00:18:06.489 --> 00:18:10.549
in the water, the invertebrates, and they kind of integrate all of the conditions

00:18:10.549 --> 00:18:11.869
in that lake or in that river.

00:18:12.469 --> 00:18:16.889
And so, you know, if we see sensitive insects in a lake that are in a river,

00:18:16.949 --> 00:18:22.169
that means that it's in good shape and it's not polluted and it's got good habitat.

00:18:22.329 --> 00:18:26.829
But sometimes we only see a few types of insects and that's often a bad sign.

00:18:26.949 --> 00:18:31.069
But then we have to look a little closer to see, OK, what's why are those insects absent?

00:18:31.189 --> 00:18:34.149
What happened? What's wrong with this stream that is causing them to disappear?

00:18:34.429 --> 00:18:38.249
And then how would the layperson and you're recruiting volunteers,

00:18:38.409 --> 00:18:41.609
how would that layperson know what to look for? Sure.

00:18:41.749 --> 00:18:44.849
We offer all the training they need to get started.

00:18:44.849 --> 00:18:49.569
We are based through a partnership with Michigan State University, where I work,

00:18:49.829 --> 00:18:52.909
and the Michigan Department of Environment, Great Lakes and Energy,

00:18:53.089 --> 00:18:57.409
who provides all the funding for the project, and other partners that help us

00:18:57.409 --> 00:19:01.189
deliver training locally all around the state of Michigan so that people know

00:19:01.189 --> 00:19:03.769
what they're doing, they have the right equipment, and so forth.

00:19:03.769 --> 00:19:06.249
And then we help them interpret that data as well.

00:19:06.429 --> 00:19:10.249
So nobody's out on their own. We support those volunteers. As soon as they show

00:19:10.249 --> 00:19:14.189
interest, we find a role that fits their interest, a location for monitoring

00:19:14.189 --> 00:19:15.129
that fits their interest.

00:19:15.329 --> 00:19:19.009
And then once they've started collecting data, we help them understand what that means.

00:19:19.289 --> 00:19:22.309
All right. And if somebody wanted to get involved, is there a cost to get involved?

00:19:22.309 --> 00:19:25.769
So if you want to get involved with stream monitoring, it runs a little different.

00:19:25.809 --> 00:19:27.909
So I'll talk about stream and river monitoring first.

00:19:28.109 --> 00:19:32.069
If you're interested in doing stream or river monitoring, we would connect you

00:19:32.069 --> 00:19:34.069
with one of our partner groups around the state.

00:19:34.249 --> 00:19:38.729
These are often watershed councils, conservation districts, and other river-focused

00:19:38.729 --> 00:19:39.849
groups around the state.

00:19:40.289 --> 00:19:44.009
And you can volunteer, no cost. They're always looking for volunteers.

00:19:44.309 --> 00:19:48.209
It just depends, you know, which river or system you want to work on.

00:19:48.269 --> 00:19:52.409
We can help connect you with that organization. For lake monitoring.

00:19:53.235 --> 00:19:57.495
In that case, it's more of an individual volunteerism, and so there is a small

00:19:57.495 --> 00:20:02.015
fee associated just so we can get you the sample bottles, the equipment,

00:20:02.195 --> 00:20:03.555
the paperwork that you need.

00:20:03.835 --> 00:20:09.215
In most cases, this is less than $100 a year, $30 to $60, depending on what

00:20:09.215 --> 00:20:10.355
you decide you want to monitor.

00:20:10.555 --> 00:20:14.435
So we try and keep the cost very reasonable for people, but that helps us keep

00:20:14.435 --> 00:20:15.415
the program going. Sure.

00:20:15.495 --> 00:20:19.815
And that is very reasonable for the amount of information that you get and how

00:20:19.815 --> 00:20:24.115
much value that can provide to you in understanding that waterway. Absolutely.

00:20:24.455 --> 00:20:27.335
Excellent. Well, how would people get in touch with MyCorps if they wanted to

00:20:27.335 --> 00:20:28.535
learn more and get involved?

00:20:28.735 --> 00:20:32.295
Sure. So if you want to get involved with any of this volunteer monitoring,

00:20:32.515 --> 00:20:35.915
you can visit us at our website. It's MyCorps.net.

00:20:36.035 --> 00:20:40.915
I'll spell that for you. It's M-I-C-O-R-P-S dot net.

00:20:41.135 --> 00:20:44.275
And there you'll find all the information about the program, the history.

00:20:44.595 --> 00:20:48.055
This program's been going on for more than 50 years. So we have a really rich data set.

00:20:48.175 --> 00:20:51.595
You can see how to get involved and you can actually see all the data that our

00:20:51.595 --> 00:20:54.055
volunteers have collected. There's a public database on there.

00:20:54.335 --> 00:20:57.955
Look up your favorite Michigan waterway and chances are there's some data in there for you.

00:20:58.275 --> 00:21:00.555
Fantastic. But Joe, thank you very much for the work that you and your team

00:21:00.555 --> 00:21:06.095
do for my core for monitoring and managing or understanding the health of Michigan's

00:21:06.095 --> 00:21:07.555
waterways. Thank you so much.

00:21:08.195 --> 00:21:12.815
Paul Molesky is joining me here. And Paul, you're with Team River Runner, is that right? Correct.

00:21:13.075 --> 00:21:16.755
Yeah, I'm an adaptive kayaking instructor with the Team River Runner organization.

00:21:16.795 --> 00:21:21.595
We're based in Rockville, Maryland, and we have 38 chapters throughout the United States.

00:21:21.755 --> 00:21:24.855
All right. So tell us about Team River Runner, how it got started,

00:21:24.895 --> 00:21:26.635
and who benefits from Team River Runner?

00:21:26.755 --> 00:21:30.355
Team River Runner was started 20 years ago by a gentleman named Joe Mornini.

00:21:30.355 --> 00:21:37.975
Team Riverrunner provides adaptive paddling opportunities all over the world for the,

00:21:38.868 --> 00:21:43.668
That's fantastic. And all the services are provided at no charge to the veterans.

00:21:44.128 --> 00:21:48.648
And we supply the equipment. We supply them with paddling opportunities.

00:21:48.968 --> 00:21:53.568
We do paddle all over the United States. And it's really a good time.

00:21:53.748 --> 00:21:57.008
That's great. Now, what kinds of paddling do you generally get into?

00:21:57.308 --> 00:22:01.708
Well, we do all sorts of paddling. We do whitewater paddling. We do rafting.

00:22:01.848 --> 00:22:05.288
We have people in shredders. We do sea kayaking. just

00:22:05.288 --> 00:22:08.468
about we run the gamut of of paddling

00:22:08.468 --> 00:22:11.848
opportunity we just really do all right you say shredders what's

00:22:11.848 --> 00:22:16.128
a shredder shredder is it has two pontoons inflatables

00:22:16.128 --> 00:22:22.388
and then it has a best way i can describe it as like a a chariot kind of a thing

00:22:22.388 --> 00:22:27.468
in the middle and you strap yourself into that and that allows you to much like

00:22:27.468 --> 00:22:33.908
an ik which is an inflatable kayak it's a lot more forgiving than a hard shell kayak is.

00:22:34.108 --> 00:22:36.908
You don't have to really learn how to roll or anything like that,

00:22:37.068 --> 00:22:40.448
which is so important if you're going to be in a hard shell kayak and a class

00:22:40.448 --> 00:22:41.948
two, class three, class four river.

00:22:42.148 --> 00:22:46.408
Now, when you say adaptive paddling, so give us a scale for the adaptations you support.

00:22:46.608 --> 00:22:53.208
So the adaptations typically are built by a gentleman in Minnesota named Kevin Carr.

00:22:53.388 --> 00:22:59.488
And he has a company called Creating Ability. And that allows us to outfit boats

00:22:59.488 --> 00:23:05.588
to accommodate any type of otherwise abled paddler that wants to paddle.

00:23:05.808 --> 00:23:12.208
So if you have some type of a thoracic injury where you have a spinal cord damage

00:23:12.208 --> 00:23:19.148
or you are missing a leg or an arm or you have some type of mobility issues,

00:23:19.148 --> 00:23:21.808
if you are visually impaired, hearing impaired.

00:23:22.646 --> 00:23:28.006
We have equipment that allows us as adaptive paddling instructors to actually

00:23:28.006 --> 00:23:35.526
construct seats inside the boats and so on to accommodate anything that may have befallen you.

00:23:36.026 --> 00:23:40.546
Okay. And you do some work yourself as an adaptive paddling instructor.

00:23:40.766 --> 00:23:46.186
I do. I do three or four clinics a year. I do one down in the Keys in May,

00:23:46.426 --> 00:23:49.126
which is a visually impaired clinic.

00:23:49.306 --> 00:23:53.446
And we take visually impaired paddlers out. It's always a lot of fun.

00:23:53.866 --> 00:24:00.746
Visually impaired paddlers have a great sense of humor and they just really, really enjoy it.

00:24:01.006 --> 00:24:04.906
And that's more of a sea kayaking kind of a thing because we're in the mangroves

00:24:04.906 --> 00:24:06.126
and stuff like that paddling.

00:24:06.266 --> 00:24:10.906
Then they do several trips on the East Coast, on the Natahala River,

00:24:11.066 --> 00:24:14.846
the Ocoee River, and some of the other premier paddling rivers on the East Coast.

00:24:14.986 --> 00:24:18.926
And then they do several trips out West, including trips on the Grand Canyon. Okay.

00:24:19.186 --> 00:24:22.226
And speaking of Grand Canyon, we were talking prior to the interview here.

00:24:22.626 --> 00:24:28.466
I had interviewed Steve Baskus and Ken Brabin, who was his guide on the Grand Canyon.

00:24:28.706 --> 00:24:31.986
And they did that as a Team Riverrunner trip. Yep. And the first time I ever

00:24:31.986 --> 00:24:37.426
met Steve Baskus was at an event down in the Keys where he paddled out into

00:24:37.426 --> 00:24:38.966
the mangroves and everything.

00:24:39.206 --> 00:24:42.826
And, you know, he's a super guy. I mean, he's a challenge by choice type of

00:24:42.826 --> 00:24:46.246
guy. You know, you can't, he's insurmountable. He just is.

00:24:46.886 --> 00:24:50.286
Now, for visually impaired paddlers, how do you support a visually impaired paddler?

00:24:50.566 --> 00:24:53.806
Visually impaired paddlers, typically what we have, depending on their level

00:24:53.806 --> 00:24:57.446
of impairment, we supply guides.

00:24:57.666 --> 00:25:01.606
And so I work with training guides that paddle with.

00:25:03.282 --> 00:25:07.902
And so you have a directional guide typically, even though we're kind of moving

00:25:07.902 --> 00:25:11.982
away from having two guides per boat, you usually have a directional guide and

00:25:11.982 --> 00:25:14.302
then you have a correction guide.

00:25:14.522 --> 00:25:20.262
And the directional guide is out front, typically about 20 yards or so.

00:25:20.462 --> 00:25:25.282
They got to have a strong voice and all they do is yell on me, on me.

00:25:25.642 --> 00:25:31.022
And so the visually impaired paddler cues up on what that, you know,

00:25:31.102 --> 00:25:35.782
the sound. And then the correction guide is right on the visually impaired paddler's

00:25:35.782 --> 00:25:37.302
hip. And they do the corrections.

00:25:37.702 --> 00:25:41.082
They'll do, you know, two left, two right, you know, hazard ahead,

00:25:41.542 --> 00:25:45.142
uh-oh, you know, because you just never know what's going to happen.

00:25:45.382 --> 00:25:47.342
Sometimes stuff happens. That's right.

00:25:47.602 --> 00:25:50.982
Water's a dangerous place. Yep, and it'll always win. It will always win.

00:25:50.982 --> 00:25:53.042
And, you know, if you're not careful, it will eat you.

00:25:53.242 --> 00:25:58.742
Yes. You just got to be conscientious. But you can't possibly have a better

00:25:58.742 --> 00:26:04.362
group of people to paddle with as far as the level of volunteerism.

00:26:04.562 --> 00:26:08.522
Team River Runner does have a very small organization.

00:26:08.682 --> 00:26:15.442
It's a huge organization, but it only has about 10 paid staff members.

00:26:15.702 --> 00:26:18.662
Okay, so wide reach, but not a lot of depth in terms of its staffing.

00:26:18.842 --> 00:26:21.222
So, you know, we're very, very volunteer dependent.

00:26:21.762 --> 00:26:25.262
Every chapter has a court chapter coordinator.

00:26:25.942 --> 00:26:32.062
Multiple chapters are then grouped into districts and regions or regional coordinators.

00:26:32.282 --> 00:26:35.162
We have monthly training meetings. We have monthly meetings.

00:26:35.362 --> 00:26:39.662
Above all, you know, we want to paddle with these folks. We want to make sure

00:26:39.662 --> 00:26:40.982
that they can paddle safely.

00:26:41.142 --> 00:26:43.862
Safety is always the biggest concern that we have.

00:26:44.262 --> 00:26:47.522
And, you know, kayaking is freedom.

00:26:47.942 --> 00:26:53.722
And you don't have to be some Herculean person to paddle. You know,

00:26:54.202 --> 00:26:58.482
kayaking has been described by one of my mentors as a dance on the water.

00:26:59.339 --> 00:27:01.999
Really is you know it's kayaking is

00:27:01.999 --> 00:27:04.779
one of those things that i always tell my

00:27:04.779 --> 00:27:07.799
students you just got to look cool it doesn't matter

00:27:07.799 --> 00:27:10.579
if you can do this you can do that you just got to look

00:27:10.579 --> 00:27:13.899
cool you know master those strokes you get

00:27:13.899 --> 00:27:16.579
out there on the river with the recreational kayakers you know the

00:27:16.579 --> 00:27:19.499
people that are out there like weekend warrior kind of things and you

00:27:19.499 --> 00:27:22.619
just you come up with a really good you know

00:27:22.619 --> 00:27:25.419
forward stroke or a reverse stroke or a really

00:27:25.419 --> 00:27:28.419
really cool sculling draw and

00:27:28.419 --> 00:27:31.259
just just that way your paddle can move in the water and

00:27:31.259 --> 00:27:34.119
they they just marvel at it and you know it's

00:27:34.119 --> 00:27:37.659
it's trying to make the effort effortless excellent

00:27:37.659 --> 00:27:40.639
well thank you very much for your work we appreciate that how can

00:27:40.639 --> 00:27:44.019
somebody get in touch with river runner i'm sorry with team river runner so

00:27:44.019 --> 00:27:49.139
if they want to take advantage of the services so if you go to www.teamriverrunner.com

00:27:49.139 --> 00:27:55.719
we have a very extensive website we have volunteer opportunities each state

00:27:55.719 --> 00:27:59.579
there's a there's a map that is color-coded,

00:27:59.779 --> 00:28:04.779
and you just click on the state, and it will tell you where your chapters are,

00:28:04.919 --> 00:28:10.359
who the chapter coordinators are, and any type of volunteer or paddling opportunities

00:28:10.359 --> 00:28:11.039
that might be available.

00:28:12.150 --> 00:28:14.750
Paul, thank you very much for your time. Thank you for the opportunity.

00:28:14.930 --> 00:28:15.510
Thanks for your service.

00:28:16.050 --> 00:28:20.610
I'm with Neil Glazebrook, and Neil is with the League of Michigan Bicyclists. Welcome, Neil.

00:28:21.210 --> 00:28:25.050
Hey, thanks for having me, John. Yeah, pleasure to work with you here on this.

00:28:25.130 --> 00:28:29.590
We've worked together in a different capacity here through my day job on a basis

00:28:29.590 --> 00:28:31.150
for the last few years. Absolutely.

00:28:31.410 --> 00:28:33.930
A little bit different here today. So tell us a little bit about the League

00:28:33.930 --> 00:28:35.150
of Michigan Bicyclists.

00:28:35.410 --> 00:28:40.410
Yeah, the League of Michigan Bicyclists is Michigan's statewide advocacy organization.

00:28:40.410 --> 00:28:47.310
And what we do is help shape law, policy, and regulations to make biking safer

00:28:47.310 --> 00:28:50.230
and more accessible for everyone here in the state of Michigan.

00:28:50.450 --> 00:28:53.690
All right. Now, how do you go about doing that? We do that a number of ways.

00:28:53.890 --> 00:28:59.530
So one of the ways we do that is by events, which is what my role is here at the league.

00:28:59.530 --> 00:29:05.570
Putting on events that help educate not only cyclists about proper ways to use

00:29:05.570 --> 00:29:07.730
things or try new experiences,

00:29:08.010 --> 00:29:13.530
but also the events we put on and the way we conduct them help also educate

00:29:13.530 --> 00:29:20.370
citizens at large about cyclists and cyclists being on the road and how to interact with them. Sure.

00:29:20.710 --> 00:29:24.130
Tell us about some of the events that you run and how those help with that.

00:29:25.203 --> 00:29:29.563
So like, as you're aware, we have ran many week-long bike tours historically.

00:29:29.923 --> 00:29:34.663
What we are embarking on right now with some announcements we made this year

00:29:34.663 --> 00:29:41.023
are getting back to really focusing on our advocacy routes and running some

00:29:41.023 --> 00:29:47.003
events that are largely based in education and in embracing and welcoming people

00:29:47.003 --> 00:29:49.783
to events in a non-competitive,

00:29:49.923 --> 00:29:51.003
educational.

00:29:51.403 --> 00:29:53.343
Sort of family-friendly manner. Okay.

00:29:53.583 --> 00:29:57.143
So now in terms of, you mentioned family friendly. So in terms of events and

00:29:57.143 --> 00:30:02.103
in terms of activities, do you focus on a specific population, I guess?

00:30:02.103 --> 00:30:09.363
Well, for many years in the touring side of things, the population was always

00:30:09.363 --> 00:30:15.183
the folks that had time and money to operate and kind of be gone for a week.

00:30:15.183 --> 00:30:22.903
Our focus currently really is more on the competitive racing crowd and the youth

00:30:22.903 --> 00:30:29.683
programs and the youth racing crowd and a lot of the kind of grassroots community

00:30:29.683 --> 00:30:33.083
programs that are going on all over the state.

00:30:33.083 --> 00:30:38.223
We're trying to kind of partner with and work alongside them to lift their events

00:30:38.223 --> 00:30:42.423
up and support them in ways that they might have gaps and needs. Okay.

00:30:42.643 --> 00:30:46.703
And when we think cycling, any specific genres or all genres of cycling?

00:30:46.903 --> 00:30:51.063
Well, we've largely been known for road cycling as an organization.

00:30:51.063 --> 00:30:56.723
But in the last few years in my time here and with some of the work we're doing

00:30:56.723 --> 00:30:59.243
going forward, it's every discipline.

00:30:59.243 --> 00:31:05.643
We're trying to do things for road, for gravel folks, for cyclocross, for BMX folks.

00:31:05.643 --> 00:31:11.203
And then I myself am an avid mountain biker and do a lot of things around the

00:31:11.203 --> 00:31:15.483
state for the league and everywhere else that deeply relate to myself.

00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:20.080
So people want to learn more about the League of Michigan Bicyclists and get

00:31:20.080 --> 00:31:21.860
involved. And how would they do that?

00:31:22.300 --> 00:31:27.560
Yeah, the best way is to go to our website at lmb.org.

00:31:27.740 --> 00:31:32.800
And we have a multitude of information on there about our educational opportunities,

00:31:32.800 --> 00:31:37.140
our events, our things like Advocacy Day that we hold every year.

00:31:37.520 --> 00:31:40.680
Our website is a great resource to find all that information.

00:31:40.980 --> 00:31:44.120
Okay. And then we talked earlier, you do some things through League of Michigan

00:31:44.120 --> 00:31:48.620
Bicyclists that are, I guess, paddling adjacent in terms of not just cycling,

00:31:48.660 --> 00:31:51.640
but you branch out outside of that because it's all connected. Absolutely.

00:31:51.940 --> 00:31:57.600
So I sit on many boards for the DNR, the Michigan DNR Department of Natural Resources.

00:31:58.060 --> 00:32:04.620
I chair the NAW, Non-Motorized Advisory Work Group, which represents all non-motorized

00:32:04.620 --> 00:32:09.440
trail use and gives recommendations up to the department and then ultimately

00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:12.040
to the governor's office to make policy change.

00:32:12.160 --> 00:32:17.040
In our work there over the last few years, We have expanded that board to include

00:32:17.040 --> 00:32:20.640
water trails, and we have seated two very avid,

00:32:20.780 --> 00:32:27.940
very in the realm of paddling folks on those positions to help advise on policy

00:32:27.940 --> 00:32:30.040
and have us all working together.

00:32:30.040 --> 00:32:35.440
So hiking trails, biking trails, portage points, water access,

00:32:35.720 --> 00:32:39.540
all can be connected and congruent and working together. Sure.

00:32:39.660 --> 00:32:42.180
And all those things, they're very related to one another.

00:32:42.320 --> 00:32:45.860
Somebody might be paddling to get to a put-in point and et cetera.

00:32:47.180 --> 00:32:50.580
Absolutely. All right. Well, thank you very much for your work in supporting

00:32:50.580 --> 00:32:53.360
non-motorized transportation throughout the state of Michigan through the League

00:32:53.360 --> 00:32:55.360
of Michigan Bicyclists. Appreciate your help.

00:32:56.072 --> 00:33:00.772
Thanks for the kudos. Thank you. And I'm joined now by Tim Novak.

00:33:00.932 --> 00:33:03.952
And Tim is the State Trails Coordinator for the Michigan Department of Natural

00:33:03.952 --> 00:33:06.792
Resources, known as the DNR here. So, Tim, welcome.

00:33:07.332 --> 00:33:11.452
Thank you for having me. Yeah. So, Tim, tell us a little bit about the DNR and

00:33:11.452 --> 00:33:12.992
the DNR Trails Division specifically.

00:33:13.232 --> 00:33:17.812
Sure. So, the Trails Section is part of the Parks and Recreation Division of the DNR.

00:33:18.032 --> 00:33:25.612
We are a staff of 14 people that manage. We manage roughly 13,500 miles of state-designated

00:33:25.612 --> 00:33:31.192
trail all across the state, and we cover every type of trail user that you could imagine.

00:33:31.412 --> 00:33:38.092
Hiking, biking, equestrian, ORV, snowmobile, paddle trail, we cover it all.

00:33:38.272 --> 00:33:40.992
Yeah, when most people hear trails, they just think trails on foot,

00:33:41.072 --> 00:33:43.812
but it's much broader than that, and here in the state of Michigan...

00:33:44.540 --> 00:33:47.540
Trail in lower Michigan might mean a paved trail. Trail in northern Michigan

00:33:47.540 --> 00:33:50.200
might mean an equestrian trail or anything else in between.

00:33:50.860 --> 00:33:55.820
Yeah, we cover it all from paved trails to gravel to single track dirt bike

00:33:55.820 --> 00:33:57.160
trails, everything. Okay.

00:33:57.700 --> 00:34:02.680
Now, 14 people managing almost 14,000 miles of trail. So 1,000 miles of trail

00:34:02.680 --> 00:34:04.220
per person. How does that happen?

00:34:04.440 --> 00:34:06.640
Yeah, well, we couldn't do it without our volunteers.

00:34:06.880 --> 00:34:11.380
That's for sure. We have volunteer organizations all across the state that help us do it.

00:34:12.040 --> 00:34:16.960
And so they're a big part of what we do. Really, our staff are there to help

00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:19.700
other people manage those sections of trail.

00:34:19.900 --> 00:34:24.340
We do a lot of granting to local communities to help them fund the portion of

00:34:24.340 --> 00:34:26.320
trail maintenance that they can do in their region.

00:34:26.500 --> 00:34:32.660
And then we also tap into our operations side of parks and use our local parks

00:34:32.660 --> 00:34:35.620
that we have in different regions across the state.

00:34:35.820 --> 00:34:39.340
And they go outside of their state park boundaries to help us on the trails

00:34:39.340 --> 00:34:40.960
that are nearby to them. Okay.

00:34:41.380 --> 00:34:45.760
And then in terms of trail management, how does the DNR support the trail management specifically?

00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:49.680
What kind of pieces of that are you involved in? Yeah, so the vast majority

00:34:49.680 --> 00:34:55.220
of what I do is granting out of funds and helping appropriate state funds to

00:34:55.220 --> 00:34:56.540
the management of those trails.

00:34:56.940 --> 00:35:01.940
So we work with, like I said, local agencies, volunteer groups,

00:35:02.460 --> 00:35:07.060
snowmobile and ORV clubs, and we write them grants to help manage those trails.

00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:12.260
And then we also have our internal stuff. I work with our team of staff in the

00:35:12.260 --> 00:35:16.660
trail section and we do a lot of the construction management side of things.

00:35:16.960 --> 00:35:21.460
So resurfacing of trails, bridge replacements, culvert replacements,

00:35:21.700 --> 00:35:23.560
things that keep the trails in good working.

00:35:24.277 --> 00:35:27.517
All right. Now, from a water trail standpoint, how do you support that area?

00:35:27.697 --> 00:35:33.437
Yeah. So part of those friends groups that we have are trail management organizations across the state.

00:35:33.537 --> 00:35:41.137
So we have 10 state designated water trails, over 700 miles of water trail that are state designating.

00:35:41.317 --> 00:35:46.197
And each of those water trails has a management organization with them.

00:35:46.197 --> 00:35:50.797
It might be a watershed council. It might be a county government.

00:35:50.797 --> 00:35:55.957
It might be a friends of a river trail type of situation.

00:35:56.157 --> 00:36:00.477
And we work with them to make sure that they have the funds and things that

00:36:00.477 --> 00:36:03.937
they need to manage that trail. So sometimes that's granting out of funds.

00:36:04.157 --> 00:36:08.557
Sometimes that's helping them promote capital campaigns that they're working on themselves.

00:36:08.757 --> 00:36:12.817
But there's various different ways that we work with them to make sure that

00:36:12.817 --> 00:36:16.257
they help us manage the trails that we designate.

00:36:18.443 --> 00:36:22.003
So a good friend of the show is Paddle Antrim. And so Paddle Antrim manages

00:36:22.003 --> 00:36:24.643
the Chain of Lakes water trail. So I'm assuming you've gotten involved with

00:36:24.643 --> 00:36:25.583
them as well and helped them out.

00:36:25.723 --> 00:36:30.203
Yeah, we work with them on a lot of different things. We work with Huron River

00:36:30.203 --> 00:36:32.723
Watershed Council, the Clinton River Watershed Council,

00:36:33.063 --> 00:36:39.243
the lower, middle, and upper Grand River Watershed Councils to help them manage

00:36:39.243 --> 00:36:41.303
the water trails that they manage.

00:36:41.663 --> 00:36:44.623
And if somebody wanted to learn more about a DNR trail section,

00:36:44.823 --> 00:36:49.383
how would they do that? Yeah, best place to go is michigan.gov slash DNR and

00:36:49.383 --> 00:36:53.723
checking out all the stuff that we have there from state parks to recreation

00:36:53.723 --> 00:36:55.483
areas to state forest campgrounds.

00:36:55.663 --> 00:37:00.003
There's a section right on there in the top left. They'll ask you what you want

00:37:00.003 --> 00:37:01.963
to do. And one of the things is trails.

00:37:02.163 --> 00:37:05.683
And then from there, you can pick which type of trail user you want to be.

00:37:05.863 --> 00:37:10.743
If you want to do hiking, biking, paddling, equestrian, ORVing or snowmobiling,

00:37:10.903 --> 00:37:13.243
you can choose. And we have interactive maps.

00:37:13.763 --> 00:37:17.383
We have our rec search option there where you can look through all the different

00:37:17.383 --> 00:37:20.883
state parks and recreation areas and see what we have to offer at each of those.

00:37:21.203 --> 00:37:24.743
That all comes straight from the DNR website. It's the best place to go.

00:37:24.883 --> 00:37:27.843
All right. So if somebody wanted to find a water trail or find an equestrian

00:37:27.843 --> 00:37:30.043
trail or a bike trail, they can do that through the site as well.

00:37:30.143 --> 00:37:33.183
They can do that through the site. Yeah, it's called the rec search part of our site.

00:37:33.443 --> 00:37:37.023
Super. And then if somebody has, maybe they've got a great idea for a water

00:37:37.023 --> 00:37:39.743
trail, I'm guessing that you might be the first place that they can come and

00:37:39.743 --> 00:37:40.783
say, I'm interested in this.

00:37:40.883 --> 00:37:43.763
What's the process for setting that up? and you can kind of set them on the right path?

00:37:44.163 --> 00:37:51.343
Yeah, so they can email me directly, novak, N-O-V-A-K-T-8 at michigan.gov if

00:37:51.343 --> 00:37:53.143
they have a water trail that they want to start.

00:37:53.323 --> 00:37:56.563
And then we can help walk them through the process of setting up a management

00:37:56.563 --> 00:38:00.743
council, getting all the memorandums of understanding in place that they would

00:38:00.743 --> 00:38:05.423
need and then getting them into our process for getting an approval as a state

00:38:05.423 --> 00:38:06.463
designated water trail.

00:38:06.743 --> 00:38:09.203
Excellent. Well, thank you for your work with trails in the state of Michigan.

00:38:09.363 --> 00:38:11.063
I appreciate it. Yeah, thank you so much. All right.

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00:39:00.484 --> 00:39:04.564
Thanks to all of our guests for today's episode. For those listeners from the U.S.

00:39:04.684 --> 00:39:07.364
Great Lakes region, I hope you've learned something about a new place,

00:39:07.684 --> 00:39:11.044
outfitter, event, or organization whose mission you can support.

00:39:11.244 --> 00:39:14.444
If you're from somewhere else, I also hope you found another reason to visit

00:39:14.444 --> 00:39:19.184
our region that is home to 21% of the world's freshwater, or you heard from

00:39:19.184 --> 00:39:23.884
an organization that you can support, or somebody who inspired you to seek out

00:39:23.884 --> 00:39:25.844
ways to benefit your local community.

00:39:26.124 --> 00:39:29.404
We may not have ocean tides, but our Great Lakes are truly great.

00:39:29.504 --> 00:39:33.084
In the state of Michigan, you're never more than six miles from a body of water

00:39:33.084 --> 00:39:35.404
and more than 85 miles from a Great Lake.

00:39:35.804 --> 00:39:39.904
As a reminder, you can find programming and trips from me at paddlingtheblue.com.

00:39:40.004 --> 00:39:41.144
I hope to see you on the water.

00:39:41.404 --> 00:39:45.264
And don't forget, check out online seakayaking.com. Take advantage of the great

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00:39:54.064 --> 00:39:57.524
For our next episode, we're on the road again to another longtime favorite.

00:39:57.524 --> 00:40:00.304
Our next episode is going to come to you from Madison, Wisconsin,

00:40:00.524 --> 00:40:04.384
where we'll be recording from the P&H Piranha Kayaks booth at Canoe Copia,

00:40:04.804 --> 00:40:06.684
the world's largest paddle sports expo.

00:40:06.864 --> 00:40:09.984
If you're there, stop by. I'd love to get a chance to meet you.

00:40:10.144 --> 00:40:13.724
We'll be talking with paddlers and exhibitors and share some of the newest and

00:40:13.724 --> 00:40:15.104
most interesting gear from the show.

00:40:15.444 --> 00:40:18.424
Until next time, thanks again for listening, and I look forward to bringing

00:40:18.424 --> 00:40:20.764
you the next episode of Paddling the Blue.

00:40:22.764 --> 00:40:26.264
Thank you for listening to Paddling the Blue. You can subscribe to Paddling

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00:40:37.924 --> 00:40:42.204
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00:40:44.864 --> 00:40:48.004
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