#158 - Kayaking Madagascar: Chasing the Mangoky Source to Sea with Oscar Scafidi

WEBVTT

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Welcome to Paddling the Blue. With each episode, we talk with guests from the

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Great Lakes and around the globe who are doing cool things related to sea kayaking.

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I'm your host, my name is John Chase, and let's get started paddling the blue.

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Welcome to today's episode of the Paddling the Blue podcast.

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Oscar Scafidi is a schoolteacher turned explorer specializing in Africa.

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And Oscar joins today's episode to share his experience paddling the Mangok

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River in Madagascar while setting a source to see Guinness World Record.

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And it turns out just getting to the river may have been the most significant part of the trip.

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Recording this one really reminded me that there are a lot of areas in the world

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that we haven't covered thoroughly.

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If you've got a potential guest with some experience in Africa,

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Asia, South America, or one of the other many areas of the world we've not talked

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about often, let me know.

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You can send a suggestion to the contact page on peddlingtheblue.com or I've

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added a new feature to the website and I'd love for you to try it out.

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You'll find a tab on the right side of the page at paddlingtheblue.com where

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you can send a voicemail. You've heard my voice, now let's hear yours.

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Before we get to today's conversation with Oscar, James Stevenson and Simon

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Osborne at online sea kayaking.com continue to produce great content to help

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you evolve as a paddler and as a coach.

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Surfing, coaching, documentaries, expedition skills and incident management and more.

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And their newest course is Playing in the Rocks, led by two previous guests

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If you're not already a subscriber to OnlineSeaKyking.com, here is your opportunity to get started.

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Enjoy today's interview with Oscar Scafidi.

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Hello, Oscar. Welcome to Paddling the Blue. Hello, John. Thank you for inviting me.

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Yes, thank you for reaching out to me. You've got a great story,

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not only from the paddling story that we're going to talk about today,

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but a great history as an adventurer in Africa.

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So tell us a little bit about you as an adventurer. So I have a pretty exclusive focus on Africa.

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Since 2006, I have lived, worked and traveled across 36 nations on the continent.

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And my focus appears to have become kayaking rivers from source to sea,

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specifically African rivers using a Klepper kayak. So those are German collapsible kayaks.

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So what was it that drew you to Africa?

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Originally, it was completely random. So I graduated from university in 2006.

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I spent over a year hunting for a job. For some reason, I thought I wanted to work in advertising.

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And I spent a year getting rejections. And so on a complete whim,

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on my university careers notice board, I saw a job being advertised for teaching English in Sudan.

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And so I took that job. That was the first time I'd set foot outside Western Europe.

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And as soon as I arrived, I kind

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fell in love with the country and the continent, and the rest is history.

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How does teaching history turn you to a life of adventure in addition to teaching?

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Yeah. So when I was in Sudan, I did a year of living in Sudan,

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did a fair amount of exploring while I was there, although travel was somewhat

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restricted due to the various issues that were going on in that country at that time.

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But as soon as I got back, my friend and I decided I I decided I wanted to go

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back to Africa, but I couldn't work out the exact format as to how that was going to work.

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So my friend and I came up with this idea for an adventure. We bought a 1973,

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Land Rover Series 3, and we decided we were going to drive it all the way from

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London down through Europe, down through the West Coast of Africa, and to Liberia.

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And so that took in 14 different countries along the way.

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And yeah, it was after that expedition that I was hooked and decided that I

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wanted that exploration to be a big part of my life.

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So how did you decide on that specific trip and that route?

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I'm not sure what the genesis of that was, to be honest.

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It's so long ago at this stage. Yeah, I think, to be honest,

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it might be my friend Mark who

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takes the blame for that. I think he might have been the driving force.

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Because I remember we were friends at university, and at university every summer,

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I would watch him go off to these wild and exotic places. And I was always really confused.

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He'd go off backpacking in Syria and all these other locations.

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And I just thought that was a really strange way of spending your time.

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So I couldn't really empathize.

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Looking back on it, I slightly regret not joining him at that time.

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But anyway, after years of knowing him, he finally managed to persuade me to

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join him on one of these trips.

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And I'm very glad that I did because it showed me a whole other side of the

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world and a whole other side of travel that I've since made a huge part of my life.

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Absolutely. So since finding Sudan in 2006, that's led you to 35 other countries

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living and working in those countries.

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So in addition to the Land Rover expedition and then the paddling expedition

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that we'll talk about today and other peddling expeditions.

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What other kind of focuses have you pursued in terms of your adventure life?

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I've done a couple of other large overland expeditions.

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So I remember in 2010, my brother and I bought an old 1980s Volkswagen panel van,

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and then we sort of very amateurishly converted it into a camper van,

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and then we drove it from London to Russia and back.

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So that was a whole summer's worth of adventure. And I remember part of that,

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we crossed from Georgia into Russia via the breakaway Republic of Abkhazia,

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which was quite exciting.

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But yeah, in 2016, that's when things really changed because that's the first

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time I went on a long distance kayaking expedition.

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And that was the expedition in Angola, along Angola's longest river,

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which is called the Kwanzaa River. Tell us a little bit about that trip.

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So that was the brainchild of a friend of mine called Alfie Weston.

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So we both met in Angola. We were both working in Angola. I was teaching out

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in Angola and he was working in the corporate world.

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So he already owned a 1960s Klepper Arius II expedition kayak,

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but he just used it for sort of day trips on the Kwanzaa River.

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And he found out that he was going to be leaving Angola. So he decided as one

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last hurrah, he wanted to try and kayak the longest river in the country from

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source to sea, which is a quite a lofty ambition because that river is over

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a thousand kilometers long and it's never been done before.

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And it goes through some extremely remote areas in the country.

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So I think he realized that I was the only person who would be stupid enough

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to say yes to something like that.

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So I signed up for that in mid 2015 and then we had nine months to get ready

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and then do the expedition.

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So a thousand kilometers first time it had been navigated source to sea.

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Absolutely. I mean, the whole expedition ended up being 1,300 kilometers because

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there was a fair amount of portage.

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It took us 33 days and we set a new Guinness world record.

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That's pretty cool. Now you set a Guinness world record on your most recent trip as well.

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Well, we attempted to set a Guinness world record. It is currently still with Guinness.

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It is a very slow and meticulous process getting Guinness to recognize a world

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record when it comes to these source-to-see descents.

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So you have to gather a lot of information. There's a lot of back and forth

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when you get back. I suppose they're rightly quite skeptical of evidence they are presented.

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So I think after Angola, it took us a solid three and a half years to have the record recognized.

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And I imagine it's going to take a similar amount of time for this Madagascar

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expedition, which we completed in 2022.

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So what kind of process do you go through to request a Guinness record?

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So the process actually begins before you've even started the expedition.

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You have to reach out to Guinness, tell them what it is that you're doing,

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and then you agree in advance a portfolio of evidence that they will accept

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in order to recognize the trip.

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There's some of the obvious things, like you give GPS trails,

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but some of them are less obvious.

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So you need a lot of witness statements, and those are things you need to collect as you go.

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So you need these signed forms that give contact details so that Guinness can

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then chase up the people who say they saw you in a certain place at a certain

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time, which is obviously a little bit complicated, especially when you are in

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remote areas and there's a language barrier.

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I can imagine that would be quite a challenge.

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Yeah. In some of those areas, there is no way to contact a person.

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Well, exactly. But yeah, you're also required to submit film evidence of all

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of your locations with sort of geo-verifiable locations in the background.

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So we had to provide, well, that was fine because we were already filming a documentary film.

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So we were constantly pointing cameras at things, but you had to have footage

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for morning, midday and end of the day for every single day with something that

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could be geolocated in the frame.

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So they were very, very strict about you, you know, you claim you camped here that night, show us.

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So a GPS trail was not sufficient.

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Well, good luck on getting that. So you said that was 2022.

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So you're at the point of this recording three years into that process.

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I wish you the best with that.

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Thank you. Yeah. I mean, ultimately, we apply for these records because they

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help with the fundraising efforts of the expeditions.

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We know that we did it, so we don't necessarily need Guinness to tell us we did it.

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But it does sort of inspire confidence in the expedition and help people to

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understand something about the level of difficulty and the uniqueness of it,

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which tends to promote more donations to the charity that we are raising money

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for with the expedition.

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We quite like that as a stamp that gets people's attention. So your most recent

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expedition that we're going to talk about today is Madagascar and the Mangok

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River. First, why Madagascar?

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Madagascar, I selected because that is a place that I used to live and work.

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So I taught at an international school in Madagascar between 2017 and 2019 in

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the capital, Antananarivo.

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And yeah, obviously I moved there in 2017, which was only one year after the Angola expedition.

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And the minute I arrived, I had it in the back of my mind that I wanted to kayak

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the longest river on the island.

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I knew, well, from all the research I'd done, it didn't look like anyone had done it before.

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In fact, from all the research I'd done, it actually looked a little bit contested

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where the exact source of the Mangok River was.

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But anyway, work got in the way and then I left the country,

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which complicated things slightly, and then COVID got in the way.

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So it actually took us until 2022 to get this expedition up and running.

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So tell us a little bit about Madagascar. I mean, I think most people probably,

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the only image they have of Madagascar is the Disney movie.

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Yes, absolutely. So the first thing people think of is the cute lemurs bouncing

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around and maybe that annoying theme song that the film has.

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But yeah, Madagascar, I knew very little about Madagascar when I moved out there

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in 2017, but it is a fascinating and unique place. So people talk about it as

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the eighth continent because it has so much unique flora and fauna.

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It's been isolated as an island for thousands of years. And so everything has

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just evolved in a very different direction.

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It looks completely different to nearby Mozambique, which is just across the my zombie channel.

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Part of that reason is because of that isolation as an island.

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But part of the reason is also because Madagascar was not settled from mainland Africa.

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Madagascar was actually settled from the east, from the other side of the Indian Ocean.

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So the people who live in Madagascar are related to the peoples of Indonesia,

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specifically in areas like Borneo.

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So it's incredible to think that instead of just sailing across the Mozambique

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Channel, people sailed all the way across the Indian Ocean from Indonesia to settle the island.

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And you see that in the language, which is very similar to Indonesian languages.

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You see that in a lot of the technology in terms of the traditional fishing

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vessels, that sort of thing, and the musical instruments. And also you see it in the landscapes.

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It is a very rice-based, rice paddy-based agricultural economy.

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So when you're there, it's really, really surprising. You look out at some of

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the landscapes and you think you could be in somewhere like Indonesia or Vietnam.

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You don't think mainland Africa.

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So why was it settled from the east as opposed to being settled from Africa?

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That I'm not so sure about. I know that the weather in the Mozambique Channel is a bit of a disaster.

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So getting across that channel, even though it's short, is a rather tricky enterprise.

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So it might be the fact that it was protected from mainland Africa by bad weather.

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And also the trade winds across the indian ocean will

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naturally blow you westwards in

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that direction and you can sort of skirt the coast going via india and then

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coming down the coast of africa but yeah i'm not really sure to be honest it's

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it's kind of mind-boggling that that's the way it happened so tell us uh what

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would somebody experience when going to madagascar.

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Most tourists go to Madagascar to see the unique flora and fauna.

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So they would head out to some of the national parks.

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And as you've already mentioned, the most obvious one is the lemurs.

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So there are all sorts of cute, fluffy, and endemic lemurs to be found.

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Different sorts in different parts of the country. They're absolutely fantastic.

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So yeah, they're a big draw. But also you've got, you know,

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it's a 1,600 kilometer long island, and you've got

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a lot of different landscapes there there's a big

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spine of mountains down the middle you have massive

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indian ocean coastline so you've got all sorts of

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incredible wildlife in the ocean as well so people go and they like to go diving

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it's an excellent diving destination you can see whale sharks in certain areas

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in the north it's got some of the best surf in the indian ocean so i'm a surfer

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and i really enjoyed my two years there because i could always nip to either

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the east coast or the west coast and go surfing.

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Yeah, it's got a lot to offer, but a lot of people don't really think of it

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as a potential holiday destination.

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Is there a big tourist trade there?

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There's a relatively big tourist trade, but a lot of the people who go are French,

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and it's quite contained to certain parts of the island.

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So there is an island to the north of Madagascar called Nosy Bay,

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and that has very, very developed tourism infrastructure. In fact,

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that has its own airport.

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So people can fly in and do package holidays or beach holidays without ever

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actually setting foot on mainland Madagascar.

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In other parts, it is less developed, I would say. So why the Mangok River?

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Well, I would never want to do an expedition like this in a country that I haven't lived in before.

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So I always want to have a fair understanding of the geography and also the

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political climate and just the way the bureaucracy works.

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And so, yeah, having lived there for two years, I had an excellent network.

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I knew people on the ground.

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These are people that would be extremely useful in the event of a medical emergency,

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but also these are the people through whom you can gather data about who do I need permission from?

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How exactly can I find where the source is? How can I get there?

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All the resupply questions, those sorts of things.

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So it takes months and months and months to plan an expedition like this.

00:15:40.529 --> 00:15:44.329
And it would just be infinitely harder to try and do it in a country that you

00:15:44.329 --> 00:15:45.969
didn't already have a lot of experience in.

00:15:46.789 --> 00:15:51.729
So tell us about the Mangak river specifically length and what you would experience there.

00:15:52.505 --> 00:15:57.525
So the Mangok River is not that explored, at least in its upper stretches.

00:15:57.825 --> 00:16:03.545
So we had to do a fair amount of research just to establish where the source of it was.

00:16:03.745 --> 00:16:08.685
So there's lots of different ways you can define the source of a river.

00:16:09.145 --> 00:16:17.445
Is it the tributary that contributes the most water into the main river year-round?

00:16:17.445 --> 00:16:22.285
Is it the tributary that starts and flows year-round furthest away from the

00:16:22.285 --> 00:16:23.865
mouth, et cetera, et cetera.

00:16:24.545 --> 00:16:28.025
For the Angola expedition in 2016, it's very easy to find the source of the

00:16:28.025 --> 00:16:32.145
Kwanzaa. There's a GPS location on Wikipedia. It is marked with a signpost.

00:16:32.365 --> 00:16:34.405
It's there. There's no question.

00:16:34.685 --> 00:16:37.245
For the Madagascar trip, not so simple at all.

00:16:37.645 --> 00:16:45.485
So there was zero information online as to which of the main tributaries was the source.

00:16:45.485 --> 00:16:51.245
And we had to do a lot of research in the end we dug around in a 1990s french

00:16:51.245 --> 00:16:55.785
hydrological report of the island and there was some tangential reference to

00:16:55.785 --> 00:17:01.805
the source being one of the tributaries which is called the matziatra river

00:17:01.805 --> 00:17:04.545
and talking about the source of that river being,

00:17:05.105 --> 00:17:09.125
relative its location was given relative to a mountain so it didn't have a gps

00:17:09.125 --> 00:17:13.445
location at all but that was the best we were going to get and we asked countless

00:17:13.445 --> 00:17:15.905
people and no one could tell us any more than that.

00:17:16.305 --> 00:17:20.285
So starting the expedition, we were really heading into the unknown because

00:17:20.285 --> 00:17:23.545
we weren't even sure exactly where we needed to get to, to start.

00:17:23.965 --> 00:17:28.985
And it took us days and days and days of trekking through the jungle just to get to the start point.

00:17:29.165 --> 00:17:32.945
So that was an unusual part of the preparations for the expedition because normally

00:17:32.945 --> 00:17:34.625
you at least know where the start line is.

00:17:34.905 --> 00:17:38.925
You had quite a, quite a, quite an expedition just to begin the expedition.

00:17:39.650 --> 00:17:43.970
Yeah, that's right. We had a solid four days of four by four travel,

00:17:44.310 --> 00:17:49.230
followed by Kamaz truck travel, followed by hiking with all of our gear through

00:17:49.230 --> 00:17:53.410
increasingly dense jungle just to get to the start point, which was a little

00:17:53.410 --> 00:17:55.790
bit disheartening because by the time you arrive, you're already wet,

00:17:55.990 --> 00:17:59.390
you're tired, you're hungry, and then you have to turn around and start trekking,

00:17:59.570 --> 00:18:01.030
carrying the Klepper on your back.

00:18:01.330 --> 00:18:03.330
So yeah, that was an unusual part of it.

00:18:03.670 --> 00:18:09.730
What was less unusual was it took, yeah, I think it took about six to nine months of preparation.

00:18:10.110 --> 00:18:13.170
So part of that is physical. Try and do as much exercise as possible,

00:18:13.470 --> 00:18:16.570
get your body in shape and ready for the stress you're about to put it through.

00:18:17.350 --> 00:18:21.150
Interestingly, the vast majority of our physical prep wasn't actually kayaking.

00:18:21.370 --> 00:18:25.610
It was actually on our feet, which ended up being excellent preparation because

00:18:25.610 --> 00:18:28.750
we did far more portage than we were hoping to do on that expedition.

00:18:29.010 --> 00:18:32.910
So it's good that we had a lot of gym sessions. It's good that we had a lot of hiking with weight.

00:18:33.370 --> 00:18:38.330
And the rest of it was bureaucracy and planning, you know, who do we need permits from?

00:18:38.790 --> 00:18:44.010
Who's going to help us? We had an on the ground company called Remote River

00:18:44.010 --> 00:18:47.110
Expeditions, who helped us out with the actual logistics on the ground.

00:18:47.650 --> 00:18:50.970
And then yeah, it was gathering all the stuff together and getting it to Madagascar

00:18:50.970 --> 00:18:55.110
because my expedition partner, Ben and I were actually based in Tunisia in North

00:18:55.110 --> 00:18:56.510
Africa while planning all of this.

00:18:56.750 --> 00:19:01.490
So it was quite the logistics effort just to get all the gear together and get

00:19:01.490 --> 00:19:06.390
it flown all the way from North Africa to Madagascar to get the expedition started.

00:19:07.288 --> 00:19:10.948
So it's definitely beneficial having a partner like Remote Rivers being able

00:19:10.948 --> 00:19:12.408
to help out with that on the ground work.

00:19:13.288 --> 00:19:19.268
Absolutely. So my conversation with Gary, who is the owner of Remote River Expeditions,

00:19:19.448 --> 00:19:20.948
it actually started in 2017.

00:19:21.188 --> 00:19:24.148
So I emailed him the minute I arrived in Madagascar to say, look,

00:19:24.228 --> 00:19:25.368
this is what I'm interested in doing.

00:19:25.688 --> 00:19:29.268
Would you be able to help? I reached out to a number of different adventure

00:19:29.268 --> 00:19:33.688
tour agencies and companies that said they had done kayaking in various parts of Madagascar.

00:19:33.988 --> 00:19:38.868
And I got a solid no from everyone except for remote river expeditions.

00:19:39.068 --> 00:19:42.208
So I have a whole folder full of rejections.

00:19:42.888 --> 00:19:46.688
Understandably, companies that generally deal with tourists are not going to

00:19:46.688 --> 00:19:52.848
want the negative publicity associated with two idiots injuring themselves or worse on the river.

00:19:53.088 --> 00:19:56.608
So they all said it can't be done or we're not comfortable supporting you on

00:19:56.608 --> 00:19:58.008
something like that, which is fair enough.

00:19:58.008 --> 00:20:05.468
But gary was very positive so he he thought it sounded amazing he has a long background in.

00:20:06.268 --> 00:20:09.468
First descents and kayaking and that kind of thing in the u.s so

00:20:09.468 --> 00:20:12.128
he was fully on board and so what started was a sort of

00:20:12.128 --> 00:20:16.948
an almost five-year email chain where we went back and forth talking about how

00:20:16.948 --> 00:20:20.768
would it work how would it look where would we start how would you support and

00:20:20.768 --> 00:20:25.388
in the end they were there to help us when we actually did it in 2022 okay and

00:20:25.388 --> 00:20:28.388
uh and despite all that support it was still a challenge to be able to find

00:20:28.388 --> 00:20:29.688
the, uh, the, the source.

00:20:30.288 --> 00:20:33.948
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So on the lower stretches, they're much more accessible.

00:20:34.248 --> 00:20:37.368
People actually go and do kayaking day trips, those kinds of things,

00:20:37.408 --> 00:20:40.128
but that's the last sort of 200 kilometers or so.

00:20:40.548 --> 00:20:43.548
But the river itself is 700 kilometers plus.

00:20:43.828 --> 00:20:48.408
If you go to the source of the Masi Archer and that's very, very unexplored

00:20:48.408 --> 00:20:52.268
because that's up in the, up in the mountains, basically there's,

00:20:52.308 --> 00:20:55.968
there's very little reason for any tourists to go up there.

00:20:56.848 --> 00:21:00.428
And so 700 kilometers, how many days did the trip take you?

00:21:01.418 --> 00:21:06.978
So in total, the expedition took us 28 days, but that is factoring in the four

00:21:06.978 --> 00:21:10.878
days it took us to get to the source in the first place. So if we're talking

00:21:10.878 --> 00:21:14.258
about the actual source to see bit, it was actually 23 or 24 days.

00:21:14.558 --> 00:21:18.638
Okay. So tell us the lead up, that four days of just getting to the source,

00:21:18.778 --> 00:21:19.698
what'd you experience there?

00:21:20.458 --> 00:21:25.138
So the source is near a rather large Malagasy city called Fianaranzoa.

00:21:25.518 --> 00:21:30.558
And that city is actually quite accessible. You just drive south down the spine

00:21:30.558 --> 00:21:34.218
of the country from the capital Antanan River on one of the main roads.

00:21:34.718 --> 00:21:38.058
So you kind of wind your way through the mountains as you head southwards.

00:21:38.358 --> 00:21:42.018
Once you get to Fianna Dansoa, things got a little bit more complicated because

00:21:42.018 --> 00:21:45.818
the source is to the southeast and that's out in the countryside, out in the hills.

00:21:46.278 --> 00:21:51.378
So we had to jump in a four by four with all of our gear, with our main guide, who's called Max.

00:21:51.738 --> 00:21:56.418
We basically started driving towards this mountain that I had a GPS location for.

00:21:56.818 --> 00:22:02.658
And as we went, we just kept asking local people, where's the horse and at first

00:22:02.658 --> 00:22:06.118
it was kind of obvious because we're following quite a large flowing matziata

00:22:06.118 --> 00:22:07.998
river so you just drive along it the wrong way.

00:22:08.629 --> 00:22:13.549
And eventually, it narrows down and it narrows down all rice paddies on both sides of it.

00:22:13.809 --> 00:22:18.929
We found another local guy called Yandri, who said that he lived near the source

00:22:18.929 --> 00:22:20.689
and agreed that he would take us there.

00:22:21.249 --> 00:22:26.809
And so eventually, it got so muddy and bad that the 4x4 got stuck, we had to give up on that.

00:22:27.349 --> 00:22:31.509
Luckily for us, a massive Russian Kamaz truck plied that route,

00:22:31.509 --> 00:22:34.689
so we were able to hop on the Kamaz truck with some of the locals.

00:22:35.049 --> 00:22:38.289
That took us as far as it could go, and then after that, couldn't go any further.

00:22:38.289 --> 00:22:41.429
We had to hop out and that's when we actually had to start carrying our

00:22:41.429 --> 00:22:44.909
gear towards the source and that was tricky because

00:22:44.909 --> 00:22:48.369
the local guys that we're speaking to didn't really

00:22:48.369 --> 00:22:51.489
understand what it was that we were trying to do it's

00:22:51.489 --> 00:22:54.229
quite hard to explain to them why it was that we wanted to get

00:22:54.229 --> 00:22:57.049
to the source carrying all this heavy gear so we took

00:22:57.049 --> 00:22:59.849
a rather circuitous route basically we just

00:22:59.849 --> 00:23:02.609
followed the river which is not the most efficient way of getting there

00:23:02.609 --> 00:23:05.789
because it's very windy so we're going up and down through

00:23:05.789 --> 00:23:08.689
the forest eventually it turns into jungle gets very

00:23:08.689 --> 00:23:12.549
very hilly very wet and yeah eventually

00:23:12.549 --> 00:23:20.029
we met someone who lived in a village on the actual source and then he was able

00:23:20.029 --> 00:23:23.929
to lead us to that village and we four days later we were at what we what we

00:23:23.929 --> 00:23:28.289
believed to be the source based on the french hydrological report okay so these

00:23:28.289 --> 00:23:30.209
trucks that are breaking down on you.

00:23:30.509 --> 00:23:34.909
Do you just go until it breaks down and then you leave it? I mean...

00:23:35.780 --> 00:23:39.600
Well, we had a driver and Max with us who is our chief guide.

00:23:39.800 --> 00:23:40.780
So basically we just left them.

00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:45.480
We said, okay, you guys, you guys just turn it around and head back and we'll,

00:23:45.580 --> 00:23:46.860
we'll keep going from here.

00:23:47.140 --> 00:23:51.040
I mean, we had to be, we had to be fully independent anyway.

00:23:51.340 --> 00:23:56.560
So part of the requirements of Guinness are that we had to carry the Klepper kayak at all times.

00:23:56.900 --> 00:24:00.700
So we either had to be paddling it or carrying it. So all of our gear was set

00:24:00.700 --> 00:24:04.660
up in a way that we were able to put it on our backs, even though it was very heavy.

00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:10.220
So it was inconvenient, but it wasn't entirely unexpected or difficult to deal with. Okay.

00:24:10.700 --> 00:24:15.400
And then in terms of the guides that you'd mentioned, so Max and Yandri, how do you find them?

00:24:16.340 --> 00:24:20.260
So Max actually came through remote river expeditions. So he was our man on

00:24:20.260 --> 00:24:23.180
the ground. So we knew well in advance that we were going to be meeting Max.

00:24:23.280 --> 00:24:27.840
In fact, we had a logistics planning meeting with Max in Antananariv, the capital.

00:24:28.460 --> 00:24:33.420
And he took a rather skeptical look at our clepper and decided that maybe we

00:24:33.420 --> 00:24:36.460
needed to avoid some of the more serious rapids on the river,

00:24:36.660 --> 00:24:37.900
which was a very good call.

00:24:38.460 --> 00:24:42.640
Yandri, we just met along the road. So we kept stopping in villages and asking,

00:24:42.800 --> 00:24:44.080
does anyone live further up river?

00:24:44.380 --> 00:24:49.200
And he just said, I do, and hopped in basically. So we found him while we were driving.

00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:54.160
And in terms of your gear, so you're carrying the Klepper. And what it seemed

00:24:54.160 --> 00:24:58.160
to me is that you were fairly light in terms of gear for considering the length

00:24:58.160 --> 00:25:00.160
of the trip. But tell us about the gear that you brought with you.

00:25:00.620 --> 00:25:03.540
Well, it certainly didn't feel light while we were carrying it.

00:25:04.100 --> 00:25:08.920
But yeah, I suppose you're right. We were pretty ruthless when it came to planning.

00:25:09.440 --> 00:25:14.580
Every gram that went on our backs had to be meticulously accounted for and justified.

00:25:14.580 --> 00:25:17.420
So we had a thanks to

00:25:17.420 --> 00:25:21.000
klepper we had an actual brand new klepper so for the angola

00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:24.100
expedition we had a 1960s klepper that

00:25:24.100 --> 00:25:26.980
alfie owned but for this expedition klepper actually

00:25:26.980 --> 00:25:32.760
gave us a brand new arius 2 expedition 545 which was fantastic and it's bright

00:25:32.760 --> 00:25:36.880
red which is very amusing so everyone could see us coming a mile off but that

00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:42.180
in itself weighed 36 kilos without any of the peripheral bits like the foot

00:25:42.180 --> 00:25:44.180
pedals and the rudder and that sort of thing.

00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:48.700
So I'd say probably with those extra bits that came in at about 40 kgs that

00:25:48.700 --> 00:25:49.840
we had to split between us.

00:25:50.020 --> 00:25:53.280
And then you have to stack all your other stuff on top of that on your back.

00:25:53.620 --> 00:25:57.840
So we had relatively heavy rucksacks, but yeah, we tried to keep it as light as possible.

00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:03.220
So we carried enough food for, to keep us alive for about four or five days

00:26:03.220 --> 00:26:04.760
at a time. That was the plan.

00:26:05.380 --> 00:26:08.300
We didn't have to carry too much water because we're by a river the whole time

00:26:08.300 --> 00:26:11.740
and we can just drink out the river. So we had various water filtration systems.

00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:16.640
Water2Go very kindly gave us water filtration bottles. They're a company in the UK.

00:26:17.140 --> 00:26:21.400
I think as a backup system, we had LifeStraws, who are another filtration system.

00:26:21.600 --> 00:26:26.200
And then as a tertiary backup, we had disgusting chlorine tablets,

00:26:26.460 --> 00:26:28.260
which we tried to avoid using wherever possible.

00:26:28.800 --> 00:26:33.020
Beyond that, it was just carrying medical gear, film gear, and our camping gear.

00:26:33.520 --> 00:26:38.420
Okay. So now in terms of total kit, about what kind of weight would you say you're dealing with?

00:26:39.372 --> 00:26:43.972
Hard to tell because it really varied depending on how much food we had on our backs.

00:26:44.152 --> 00:26:49.732
But I'd say at a minimum 25-ish kilos per person.

00:26:50.752 --> 00:26:57.272
So yeah. And then we arranged resupplies. So every week or so we could meet

00:26:57.272 --> 00:27:01.072
Max by the side of the river and we could resupply in terms of food. Okay.

00:27:01.452 --> 00:27:04.832
Now, so he would, and then how did you plan those resupplies?

00:27:04.952 --> 00:27:10.112
Did you tell him what you wanted or was he just sourcing whatever he could locally that,

00:27:10.772 --> 00:27:13.392
No, we brought all of our food with us. Oh, you did.

00:27:13.512 --> 00:27:17.352
Okay. He wasn't sourcing anything because we had to, again, be very careful about weight.

00:27:17.472 --> 00:27:24.172
So we used dehydrated, freeze-dried mountaineering rations, which we got from

00:27:24.172 --> 00:27:26.312
a company called Base Camp Foods in the UK.

00:27:26.872 --> 00:27:30.532
So they're ultra high calorie. I think each one was over a thousand calories.

00:27:31.052 --> 00:27:34.952
And they're just the most efficient thing to carry. So if Max had been sourcing

00:27:34.952 --> 00:27:38.072
food locally, it would have been way too heavy because it just would have been

00:27:38.072 --> 00:27:42.572
whatever people are eating in the area. And it also wouldn't have been calorie dense enough.

00:27:42.792 --> 00:27:46.472
So we're burning through a lot of calories every day. So even when we're eating

00:27:46.472 --> 00:27:50.012
these massive, massive meals, we're still hungry at the end of the day because

00:27:50.012 --> 00:27:51.632
of all the, all the exertion.

00:27:52.012 --> 00:27:53.912
Yeah. Now tell us about gruel.

00:27:54.972 --> 00:27:58.812
Gruel, yeah. So gruel became a key feature of the expedition.

00:27:59.172 --> 00:28:05.212
So for breakfast every day, we tried to cook up oats, which we had with us and

00:28:05.212 --> 00:28:10.472
we had powdered milk and we had sugar and we added protein powder to it as well.

00:28:10.472 --> 00:28:15.312
Now, over the course of the expedition, this evolved into quite the construction,

00:28:15.592 --> 00:28:21.432
which we sort of called Gruul 2.0, Gruul 3.0, Gruul 4.0, as the expedition went on.

00:28:21.592 --> 00:28:25.832
And basically, anything we could lay our hands on as we were kayaking ended

00:28:25.832 --> 00:28:27.972
up being thrown into the Gruul pot in the mornings.

00:28:28.192 --> 00:28:32.792
So on very rare occasions where we were near settlements, if we could get something

00:28:32.792 --> 00:28:37.132
like chocolate, I think the finest version of Gruul was the one where we found some M&Ms.

00:28:37.552 --> 00:28:41.332
So we could throw peanut M&Ms into the gruel. But yeah, we were just cooking

00:28:41.332 --> 00:28:45.772
up huge, huge pots of porridge essentially and then trying to add as many additional

00:28:45.772 --> 00:28:48.892
calories to it as possible to fuel us over the course of the day.

00:28:49.172 --> 00:28:52.592
All right. Taste really doesn't matter at that point. It's just getting calories in the body.

00:28:53.352 --> 00:28:56.252
Absolutely. We're just so hungry in the mornings. And it was also quite cold

00:28:56.252 --> 00:28:57.552
sometimes. So it was nice to

00:28:57.552 --> 00:29:00.772
have something hot to get you going before you had to jump on the river.

00:29:01.172 --> 00:29:04.112
Now, that's an interesting thought. I guess I wouldn't have thought of it being

00:29:04.112 --> 00:29:06.892
cold there. But what kind of temperature ranges did you deal with?

00:29:07.595 --> 00:29:11.895
Well, up at the source, we were quite high up, I believe.

00:29:12.055 --> 00:29:16.315
I think we're at about 1500 meters, something like that above sea level.

00:29:16.595 --> 00:29:19.155
So that was relatively cold. I remember being cold at night.

00:29:19.155 --> 00:29:21.495
So I had a three season sleeping bag, which was quite nice.

00:29:21.655 --> 00:29:27.275
So that kept me toasty warm, but I would say at the source, maybe it got down,

00:29:27.455 --> 00:29:33.275
maybe it got down into single digits in the night, but then we lost a lot of

00:29:33.275 --> 00:29:35.715
elevation quite quickly as we're going along.

00:29:36.055 --> 00:29:40.255
And as soon as we got down, onto the Mangok proper, we were very,

00:29:40.275 --> 00:29:45.615
very low down because there were no rapids or waterfalls for the last 200 kilometers or so.

00:29:45.795 --> 00:29:49.675
And that was actually very, very hot. So that was proper tropical temperatures by that stage.

00:29:49.835 --> 00:29:54.055
So it was an interesting variation over the course of the month-long expedition.

00:29:55.037 --> 00:29:58.877
So once you found the source and you start heading out on the river,

00:29:59.117 --> 00:30:00.657
tell us what you experienced along the way there.

00:30:01.037 --> 00:30:06.097
So once we found the source, finding the source was a complete pain, as we have discussed.

00:30:06.437 --> 00:30:13.397
In fact, trekking to it, especially carrying the kayak, I think our speed bottomed

00:30:13.397 --> 00:30:19.497
out at 600 meters per hour by the end, because we were bashing our way through jungle.

00:30:19.497 --> 00:30:25.177
And the way we split the kayak, I had the larger sections on my back,

00:30:25.417 --> 00:30:28.977
whereas Ben had the heavier overall chunk of the kayak.

00:30:29.177 --> 00:30:34.497
So I was about 2.4 meters tall, perhaps 2.6 meters tall with this big bit of

00:30:34.497 --> 00:30:35.557
wood sticking out my back.

00:30:35.717 --> 00:30:39.917
And you can imagine how slow going that is trying to go through jungle with

00:30:39.917 --> 00:30:44.957
a huge plank of wood sticking up and bashing into all of the overhanging foliage.

00:30:45.517 --> 00:30:48.277
So yeah the first the first day or so

00:30:48.277 --> 00:30:51.177
was was that it was slow moving through

00:30:51.177 --> 00:30:53.817
jungle and then we got out into the clearings again and then it was

00:30:53.817 --> 00:30:56.937
hiking with the kayak once we actually managed

00:30:56.937 --> 00:30:59.917
to get to a section of river which was

00:30:59.917 --> 00:31:03.197
wide enough to put the kayak together things were actually quite pleasant put

00:31:03.197 --> 00:31:07.117
the kayak together the river it was pretty obvious where it was going and it

00:31:07.117 --> 00:31:10.897
was flowing quite nicely and we were just surrounded by agricultural settlements

00:31:10.897 --> 00:31:15.117
so we weren't actually very alone because we were on the outskirts of Fianna

00:31:15.117 --> 00:31:17.097
Danzawa. It's quite a populated area.

00:31:17.577 --> 00:31:22.357
So we were just paddling along and we had lots of people shouting support and being very interested.

00:31:22.677 --> 00:31:26.057
So they stood in their rice paddies wondering why it was that these two foreigners

00:31:26.057 --> 00:31:27.857
were paddling along next to them.

00:31:28.217 --> 00:31:31.097
So yeah, we got to see some beautiful landscapes and it was also really easy

00:31:31.097 --> 00:31:34.077
to camp because every night you just kind of pull over wherever you wanted and

00:31:34.077 --> 00:31:36.697
you had a, you had a field that you could camp in and start a fire.

00:31:37.879 --> 00:31:40.139
Now, you were quite the celebrities along the way, as you mentioned.

00:31:40.939 --> 00:31:45.159
Yes. So we were in an area that doesn't really get any tourists.

00:31:45.499 --> 00:31:49.539
So I think in a lot of cases, we were some of the first foreigners that people

00:31:49.539 --> 00:31:51.819
had seen and everyone was really supportive.

00:31:52.179 --> 00:31:55.479
I mean, there was a bit of a language barrier. So in Madagascar,

00:31:55.559 --> 00:31:58.719
it's a former French colony. So some people speak French, but not many.

00:31:59.359 --> 00:32:02.259
And the local language is Malagasy, of which there

00:32:02.259 --> 00:32:06.159
are various variations around the island my malagasy

00:32:06.159 --> 00:32:09.579
is appalling so most communication took

00:32:09.579 --> 00:32:12.539
place in either broken malagasy french or

00:32:12.539 --> 00:32:15.299
sign language but yeah people were very very

00:32:15.299 --> 00:32:19.299
interested we'd get sort of a lot of laughter as we came around the corner and

00:32:19.299 --> 00:32:24.259
people saw this bright five and a half meter long red kayak going along we got

00:32:24.259 --> 00:32:26.999
a lot of people giving us directions because especially going through the rice

00:32:26.999 --> 00:32:30.899
paddies it wasn't immediately obvious where you needed to go at some times and

00:32:30.899 --> 00:32:35.179
we wanted to be careful not to damage people's rice paddies and agricultural setups.

00:32:35.979 --> 00:32:40.119
So yeah, people thought it's fantastic. A couple of nights they would come and

00:32:40.119 --> 00:32:42.339
offer to sort us out with firewood.

00:32:42.519 --> 00:32:45.339
Everyone was super fascinated watching us put up the tents.

00:32:45.599 --> 00:32:48.859
They're also super fascinated with the Klepper itself. I think the Klepper was

00:32:48.859 --> 00:32:49.999
the biggest celebrity of the trip.

00:32:50.399 --> 00:32:55.079
The river itself, wide river, narrow river, what are we dealing with?

00:32:55.599 --> 00:32:59.799
It's very varied, the river itself So on the Matsui Archer, we had different

00:32:59.799 --> 00:33:03.879
sections So the initial days lulled us into a bit of a false sense of security

00:33:03.879 --> 00:33:06.959
Because we ended up on a relatively wide,

00:33:07.299 --> 00:33:10.639
fast-flowing river Which was quite nice When I say relatively wide,

00:33:10.779 --> 00:33:11.979
maybe a few hundred meters across.

00:33:12.861 --> 00:33:18.781
However, that initial section of the Masi Archer is the one that loses a lot of elevation quickly.

00:33:18.841 --> 00:33:24.381
So we faced a lot of obstacles in terms of rapids, gorges, and waterfalls.

00:33:24.601 --> 00:33:29.901
And these were all obstacles that we needed to portage around because the Klepper

00:33:29.901 --> 00:33:32.461
is not the most maneuverable of craft.

00:33:32.481 --> 00:33:38.621
So it's not really designed for serious rapids and especially not so when it is laden down with gear.

00:33:38.761 --> 00:33:44.481
So it was quite heavy. So, we did a fair amount of portage to avoid certain

00:33:44.481 --> 00:33:46.361
sections on the upper matsyatra.

00:33:47.521 --> 00:33:49.761
And that still allows you to qualify for the...

00:33:50.833 --> 00:33:55.133
For the Guinness record. Yeah, interestingly, Guinness don't have any sort of

00:33:55.133 --> 00:33:57.513
ratio when it comes to portage.

00:33:57.673 --> 00:34:01.673
So I'm pretty sure we could have portaged the entire river and it would still

00:34:01.673 --> 00:34:06.053
be the record, which is lucky because the ratio ended up being pretty ridiculous.

00:34:06.293 --> 00:34:10.673
I think when we were planning the expedition, we thought absolute worst case

00:34:10.673 --> 00:34:15.233
scenario, we're going to have to do maybe 90 or 100 kilometers of portage across the whole thing.

00:34:15.733 --> 00:34:21.133
We ended up having to do 200, maybe even closer to 220,

00:34:21.353 --> 00:34:27.733
250 kilometers of portage across a 750 kilometer total, which is a pretty mad

00:34:27.733 --> 00:34:32.873
ratio simply because our route had to change a number of times as we're going along.

00:34:33.213 --> 00:34:37.593
I'm very glad that Max was there. He made a lot of these suggested changes and

00:34:37.593 --> 00:34:40.233
they were all for the best and they all made the trip much safer.

00:34:40.473 --> 00:34:43.433
I remember one particular section Max suggested we avoid.

00:34:43.693 --> 00:34:46.273
He said, yeah, that section's called Crocodile Canyon.

00:34:46.553 --> 00:34:48.453
I don't want you guys paddling through that.

00:34:48.813 --> 00:34:51.993
So we quickly agreed with him on that one.

00:34:52.693 --> 00:34:57.133
Now, so he was with you the entire trip? He was, but he checked in and out.

00:34:57.453 --> 00:35:02.053
So he wasn't there on a day-to-day basis. So he got us as close to the source

00:35:02.053 --> 00:35:03.393
as he could get us in a four by four.

00:35:03.513 --> 00:35:07.173
He dropped us off. We then agreed to meet him sort of four or five days later.

00:35:07.353 --> 00:35:11.393
And then it was the same every time. So we'd meet him, have a discussion,

00:35:11.673 --> 00:35:14.493
resupply, and then we'd agree where the next meeting point was.

00:35:14.773 --> 00:35:19.533
So yeah, we had a Garmin inReach GPS communicator.

00:35:19.613 --> 00:35:23.173
So we had a way of contacting him at all times.

00:35:23.393 --> 00:35:27.593
And yeah, he was just an absolute magician when it came to reappearing by the

00:35:27.593 --> 00:35:30.853
side of the river in some very, very remote places. I'm very impressed with

00:35:30.853 --> 00:35:34.653
Max's ability to bounce around a very difficult landscape and get to where he

00:35:34.653 --> 00:35:36.033
needed to be on time. Yeah.

00:35:36.533 --> 00:35:39.373
So what did you find to be the biggest challenge of the trip?

00:35:41.760 --> 00:35:46.700
I would say just overall the lack of information. So when it came to plotting

00:35:46.700 --> 00:35:52.720
out the rapids and waterfalls and other obstacles, we were poring over Google

00:35:52.720 --> 00:35:55.680
Earth because that's the only source of satellite photography we could find.

00:35:55.880 --> 00:36:00.200
And a lot of that satellite photography was taken in the 1980s and 90s.

00:36:00.580 --> 00:36:07.900
And you can imagine on any river, it's going to change course over 30 or 40 years.

00:36:07.900 --> 00:36:10.860
So a lot of that information was completely out of date and

00:36:10.860 --> 00:36:13.920
especially there's a big delta at the end of the river and deltas

00:36:13.920 --> 00:36:17.200
change very very quickly so it was almost meaningless trying to

00:36:17.200 --> 00:36:20.040
navigate a route using photography that was that out of date

00:36:20.040 --> 00:36:22.720
and just because nobody goes up there there was very little

00:36:22.720 --> 00:36:26.460
other information to come by as i said we found this hydrological report from

00:36:26.460 --> 00:36:32.160
the 90s that was useful but we really were going into the unknown in in a way

00:36:32.160 --> 00:36:36.140
that made me slightly uncomfortable in terms of our route so we're very lucky

00:36:36.140 --> 00:36:40.600
to have max on the ground But even even some of those sections were completely new to Max.

00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:45.700
So I think the biggest challenge was working out what we were doing and where

00:36:45.700 --> 00:36:48.800
we were going on the fly as we went.

00:36:50.040 --> 00:36:54.580
What would you say was your most, I guess, sketchiest moment on the trip?

00:36:55.532 --> 00:36:59.472
We had a couple of sketchy moments, but I would say a mountain crossing that

00:36:59.472 --> 00:37:04.392
we did west of Iqalamavun was probably the most difficult and dangerous,

00:37:04.632 --> 00:37:06.252
simply because it was so unexpected.

00:37:06.592 --> 00:37:10.732
So this was our longest section of portage that we needed to do.

00:37:11.132 --> 00:37:18.392
And I think as the crow flies, it was over 100 kilometers through an extremely remote mountain range.

00:37:18.932 --> 00:37:25.192
We found some local guides, Rodia Razozian Ramami and a guy called me.

00:37:25.532 --> 00:37:28.292
They all agreed to take us they were

00:37:28.292 --> 00:37:31.092
from that area however even they hadn't been across

00:37:31.092 --> 00:37:33.852
that mountain range before because there's absolutely no reason to go

00:37:33.852 --> 00:37:37.892
up there if you're a local so there's very little water up there which means

00:37:37.892 --> 00:37:40.872
there's not going to be much agriculture there's no point taking your cattle

00:37:40.872 --> 00:37:44.812
your zebu up there because there's not much grazing to be had and generally

00:37:44.812 --> 00:37:51.972
it's just an empty wilderness so we had to get ourselves from this point to the mangok proper.

00:37:52.152 --> 00:37:55.652
It was the last big obstacle before we got there. And we had to drag all of our gear with us.

00:37:56.092 --> 00:37:58.992
So looking on the map, I think we're quite naive going into it.

00:37:59.092 --> 00:38:03.752
We thought, oh, we're just going to smash out 30 kilometers a day of westward

00:38:03.752 --> 00:38:05.172
progress and we'll be done in.

00:38:05.894 --> 00:38:10.594
Three days, which, which looking back on it makes me laugh because it ended

00:38:10.594 --> 00:38:12.494
up taking nine, nine and a half days.

00:38:12.714 --> 00:38:18.654
And it was very, very difficult going. So, you know, we've got a lot of weight on our backs.

00:38:18.914 --> 00:38:23.994
We are climbing some very steep mountains heading up and down and up and down.

00:38:24.254 --> 00:38:28.774
There is no real pathway because no one's up there. So we're sort of looking

00:38:28.774 --> 00:38:30.574
at the contour lines on our maps.

00:38:30.934 --> 00:38:34.474
It was an interesting kind of lost because we knew exactly where we were in

00:38:34.474 --> 00:38:38.034
terms of our GPS location, because we had the satellite communicator with us.

00:38:38.294 --> 00:38:41.274
But knowing where you are is not the same as knowing where you need to go.

00:38:41.814 --> 00:38:44.194
So we did a lot of winding hiking.

00:38:44.834 --> 00:38:48.854
We took a lot of detours because we had to find water. And I have to say a big

00:38:48.854 --> 00:38:53.474
thank you to our guides because we absolutely would have run out of water had it not been for them.

00:38:53.694 --> 00:38:57.214
They were incredible at looking at the topography and the landscape and identifying

00:38:57.214 --> 00:39:00.354
areas where they thought there would be groundwater. We had no idea.

00:39:00.874 --> 00:39:05.974
So yeah, that was very, very tough. I remember on one day, we took this winding

00:39:05.974 --> 00:39:07.474
route to get around this mountain.

00:39:07.774 --> 00:39:11.054
And I remember looking at the GPS location at the end of the day,

00:39:11.154 --> 00:39:15.134
I think we'd hiked nearly 35 kilometers and we were further east than when we'd

00:39:15.134 --> 00:39:21.154
started because we'd gone in a big sort of dog leg, which was very, very disheartening.

00:39:21.434 --> 00:39:25.434
And it wasn't the case that we'd gone the wrong way. That was absolutely the

00:39:25.434 --> 00:39:26.534
only way that we could go.

00:39:26.654 --> 00:39:30.614
We had to go that way, but we had actually moved further away from our target

00:39:30.614 --> 00:39:31.774
than when we started the day.

00:39:32.074 --> 00:39:36.474
So yeah, it was deeply frustrating. We nearly ran out of water on multiple occasions.

00:39:36.474 --> 00:39:38.014
We almost ran out of food.

00:39:38.234 --> 00:39:41.854
And it was just very, very tough to be carrying that much weight on that kind

00:39:41.854 --> 00:39:43.074
of elevation for that long.

00:39:44.379 --> 00:39:48.699
How about the moment of greatest joy? I'd say the moment of greatest joy was

00:39:48.699 --> 00:39:49.999
actually closely connected to that.

00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:56.039
It was when we got to the westernmost extent of those mountains and we saw the

00:39:56.039 --> 00:39:57.999
Mangok River itself for the first time.

00:39:58.239 --> 00:40:01.399
And we saw it at sunset. So it was absolutely beautiful.

00:40:01.679 --> 00:40:04.999
And we could just see that there were no more mountains in front of us.

00:40:05.119 --> 00:40:06.619
There was now just sort of flood plain.

00:40:06.799 --> 00:40:12.919
And we just saw a big, wide, flat river with no rapids, no waterfalls,

00:40:13.099 --> 00:40:14.999
no obstructions, fast flowing.

00:40:15.239 --> 00:40:19.159
And we could see little plumes of smoke all the way down the river,

00:40:19.419 --> 00:40:22.419
which were villages starting cooking their dinner for the evening.

00:40:22.939 --> 00:40:27.879
And that was just such a relief to have got to that point because we knew we were safe.

00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:31.439
We knew we weren't going to run out of water. And we knew from that point onwards,

00:40:31.439 --> 00:40:34.179
we weren't going to face any more large portage sections.

00:40:34.419 --> 00:40:38.779
We weren't going to face any more rapids, no more waterfalls, those kinds of things.

00:40:38.939 --> 00:40:43.639
So that was a a huge, huge relief to get to the actual Mangok. Yeah, it sounds it.

00:40:44.759 --> 00:40:50.339
How about what surprised you along the way? I think probably the remoteness of the middle sections.

00:40:50.819 --> 00:40:54.959
So I don't know why I always make this mistake, but I always assume when I'm

00:40:54.959 --> 00:40:59.279
doing a trip like this, that the river is going to be inhabited all the way along its course.

00:40:59.799 --> 00:41:03.919
I made the same assumption in Angola in 2016, and I was very wrong for Angola as well.

00:41:04.359 --> 00:41:09.159
But yeah, in a lot of cases, communities do not actually choose to live by the river.

00:41:09.359 --> 00:41:12.699
I think there's a number of reasons for that. The biggest one is malaria.

00:41:13.779 --> 00:41:19.339
So by the river is the most mosquito-y location possible. So it's not actually

00:41:19.339 --> 00:41:22.719
the most sensible place to put your village necessarily, even if you do rely

00:41:22.719 --> 00:41:26.839
on the river for fishing and for watering your crops.

00:41:27.359 --> 00:41:31.799
So yeah, we assume that we would not be very isolated, but in reality,

00:41:32.079 --> 00:41:37.099
Ben and I spent a fair few days quite alone without seeing a single other human

00:41:37.099 --> 00:41:38.579
being, which I found quite surprising.

00:41:39.644 --> 00:41:43.744
Now, of those villages, are those villages connected and accessible by vehicle,

00:41:43.784 --> 00:41:45.564
or are they all just remote villages?

00:41:46.124 --> 00:41:49.404
It really depends where on the river we are talking about. So,

00:41:49.724 --> 00:41:55.864
interestingly, in terms of remoteness, the very source of the Matsui Archa River

00:41:55.864 --> 00:42:00.924
is extremely remote, and we had to go up into the jungle to go and find that.

00:42:01.184 --> 00:42:05.604
But very quickly, the river became quite inhabited and quite busy because it's

00:42:05.604 --> 00:42:07.244
next to the settlement of Fianaransoa.

00:42:07.244 --> 00:42:11.344
The most remote sections of the river, which don't have any road access,

00:42:11.524 --> 00:42:16.324
were actually the middle sections of the Maziatra, which was quite surprising.

00:42:16.764 --> 00:42:22.204
And then as we moved along towards the final sections, there was easier road access.

00:42:22.384 --> 00:42:25.224
So it really depended where on the river you were in terms of accessibility.

00:42:25.664 --> 00:42:30.464
Okay. And then when you said the villages aren't always on the river, maybe how far off?

00:42:31.264 --> 00:42:35.524
They'd maybe be set like a few kilometers back. Okay. So they It wouldn't be

00:42:35.524 --> 00:42:39.104
immediately obvious to you as you're paddling along or visible.

00:42:39.364 --> 00:42:43.084
So they're still using the river. They're still accessing the river,

00:42:43.144 --> 00:42:46.464
just not living on it for malaria purposes or whatnot.

00:42:47.044 --> 00:42:51.964
Yeah. So we would see signs of habitation. So we'd see people's dugouts sort of parked up.

00:42:52.124 --> 00:42:56.344
We would see manioc and cassava fields next to the river, but we just wouldn't

00:42:56.344 --> 00:43:00.164
see the actual huts themselves every single time. Okay.

00:43:01.250 --> 00:43:05.110
So tell us, other than guides, tell us about some of the people experiences along the way.

00:43:05.710 --> 00:43:10.310
Well, we met a lot of security forces. So we had a lot of interactions with security forces.

00:43:10.490 --> 00:43:14.890
So we were traveling through one of the most remote sections of the country.

00:43:15.150 --> 00:43:17.750
And in the past, they've had a bit of an issue with banditry.

00:43:18.310 --> 00:43:22.290
So the bandits in that part of the country are called Dahalo,

00:43:22.590 --> 00:43:25.230
which is a derogatory term.

00:43:25.390 --> 00:43:27.930
I'm not sure they would appreciate being called Dahalo necessarily.

00:43:28.330 --> 00:43:30.910
And basically, there's a lot of cattle rustling that happens.

00:43:31.190 --> 00:43:36.930
So all of the wealth within those communities is stored in the zebu, so in the cattle.

00:43:37.330 --> 00:43:40.530
So if you're going to rob someone, what you do is you take their cattle.

00:43:41.010 --> 00:43:45.250
So in these remote areas, the Dahalo go around and they steal cattle from various

00:43:45.250 --> 00:43:47.670
communities, and they are heavily armed.

00:43:48.050 --> 00:43:51.210
And yeah, it's difficult for the security forces to deal with them because it's

00:43:51.210 --> 00:43:54.670
a very remote area, very mountainous, easy for them to hide.

00:43:55.470 --> 00:43:59.310
So because we were passing through this area, I think the security forces were

00:43:59.310 --> 00:44:01.050
a little bit concerned for our safety.

00:44:01.210 --> 00:44:05.050
So on a lot of occasions, we had to check in at police stations.

00:44:05.230 --> 00:44:08.430
They kind of wanted to know where we were going to be, that kind of thing.

00:44:08.590 --> 00:44:12.090
And they'd sort of radio ahead to make sure we actually arrived where we said we were going.

00:44:12.430 --> 00:44:16.790
And I've got to say, for the entirety of the expedition, we had nothing but

00:44:16.790 --> 00:44:19.990
positive interactions with the security forces. They're all absolutely fantastic.

00:44:20.450 --> 00:44:23.150
Didn't matter whether it's the local police, where it's the gendarme,

00:44:23.270 --> 00:44:26.430
where it's the actual military themselves. They all thought the expedition was

00:44:26.430 --> 00:44:28.410
great. They were all very supportive.

00:44:28.950 --> 00:44:32.130
No one told us we couldn't keep going, which is always fantastic.

00:44:32.350 --> 00:44:37.470
That was one concern was what do we do if a particular military post just tells

00:44:37.470 --> 00:44:40.070
us we can't keep going west? That would have been a huge problem.

00:44:40.290 --> 00:44:43.550
But no, they were great. They thought it was absolutely fantastic.

00:44:43.830 --> 00:44:47.530
So we had a lot of very positive interactions in police stations,

00:44:48.090 --> 00:44:51.790
camping, even getting route suggestions sometimes when it wasn't immediately

00:44:51.790 --> 00:44:53.030
obvious where we needed to go.

00:44:53.490 --> 00:44:57.090
And apart from that, it was just meeting the people who live by the side of the river.

00:44:58.250 --> 00:45:00.390
And what did they think when they saw you?

00:45:01.466 --> 00:45:06.726
I think confusion is probably the main emotion in most people's heads when they saw us.

00:45:07.206 --> 00:45:11.086
We tried to explain where we had come from and where we were going,

00:45:11.126 --> 00:45:13.946
but that would always be met with disbelief.

00:45:14.126 --> 00:45:17.226
So obviously at the beginning of the expedition, when we said we're going all

00:45:17.226 --> 00:45:21.346
the way to the Mozambique channel, people would just shake their heads and say,

00:45:21.446 --> 00:45:24.686
no, that's too far. That's too far away.

00:45:25.066 --> 00:45:29.386
And then the further into it we got when we said, oh, we've come all away from

00:45:29.386 --> 00:45:32.506
the source over by Fianna. And so again, people would just shake their heads

00:45:32.506 --> 00:45:34.106
and be like, no, can't be possible.

00:45:34.426 --> 00:45:38.326
That's too far away. So yeah, they were, they're very confused,

00:45:39.166 --> 00:45:42.066
but yeah, they were, they were still very positive. They're very supportive.

00:45:43.426 --> 00:45:48.146
I think the, the, my favorite experience when it came to those sorts of interactions

00:45:48.146 --> 00:45:54.646
was people watching us either assemble or disassemble the Klepper because they, they love the kayak.

00:45:55.286 --> 00:45:58.126
They, that was a piece of technology they thought was absolutely fantastic.

00:45:58.766 --> 00:46:02.926
And they found it really fascinating watching it actually break down and be

00:46:02.926 --> 00:46:07.226
put away into our hiking bags or come out of our hiking bags and become this

00:46:07.226 --> 00:46:09.986
bright red five and a half meter watercraft.

00:46:10.166 --> 00:46:14.486
I think there was sort of, we had big crowds whenever we were doing that. Yeah, I bet.

00:46:15.246 --> 00:46:19.486
I think I saw in one of the videos, they were transporting the boat in a cart

00:46:19.486 --> 00:46:24.966
and villagers were riding in the kayak while it was in the cart.

00:46:25.506 --> 00:46:28.906
Yeah, that's right. So this is right towards the end of the exhibition.

00:46:29.146 --> 00:46:30.466
I think this is in a place called Ambiki.

00:46:30.806 --> 00:46:33.746
So we stopped for the evening and Max came to meet us. And this was actually

00:46:33.746 --> 00:46:36.006
a large settlement, which was very, very unusual.

00:46:37.126 --> 00:46:41.386
So for security reasons, we didn't want to leave the kayak, just kind of board

00:46:41.386 --> 00:46:42.686
up by the side of the river.

00:46:42.946 --> 00:46:47.106
So we took it into town with us instead of kayaking it.

00:46:47.206 --> 00:46:48.346
Sorry. Instead of carrying it,

00:46:48.426 --> 00:46:51.386
we just found a guy with a Zebu car and stuck it on the back of the car.

00:46:51.546 --> 00:46:54.606
So he, he was sat in the kayak on the back of his,

00:46:55.921 --> 00:46:59.561
Zebu drawn card going into town, which everyone thought was absolutely fantastic.

00:46:59.761 --> 00:47:01.981
It was a good visual that I managed to film for the documentary.

00:47:03.601 --> 00:47:08.441
That's pretty cool. You mentioned an abundant wildlife in the country.

00:47:08.721 --> 00:47:10.341
Tell us about some of the wildlife experiences.

00:47:11.221 --> 00:47:14.901
Absolutely. That was one of the highlights of the trip, I think. So first off, lemurs.

00:47:15.201 --> 00:47:18.141
We saw lemurs quite frequently and almost immediately.

00:47:18.421 --> 00:47:21.961
So on the hike to the source, Ben was very excited.

00:47:22.161 --> 00:47:25.781
He saw a pair of brown lemurs that are pretty common across the island,

00:47:26.081 --> 00:47:27.081
bouncing through the trees.

00:47:27.381 --> 00:47:31.521
So that kind of raised morale as we were trying to hack our way through the forest.

00:47:31.981 --> 00:47:35.801
And then also as we were paddling along, we saw lots of different types of lemurs.

00:47:35.961 --> 00:47:40.061
We saw the beautiful bright white sifaka, a type of lemur that are very famous

00:47:40.061 --> 00:47:43.161
for bouncing sideways when they're on the ground, look like they're sort of dancing.

00:47:44.061 --> 00:47:48.121
There's a lot of bird life by the river and paddling is probably the best way

00:47:48.121 --> 00:47:50.721
of seeing that bird life because you can sneak up on it more effectively.

00:47:51.121 --> 00:47:55.281
So fish, eagles, all that kind of thing. Some really, really big and beautiful

00:47:55.281 --> 00:47:57.841
birds. We had flamingos along the way as well.

00:47:58.401 --> 00:48:03.661
In terms of slightly more scary wildlife, there are crocodiles along the course of the river.

00:48:04.241 --> 00:48:06.621
So they were one of the things we need to be very cautious of.

00:48:07.181 --> 00:48:12.881
However, rather sadly, because a lot of the communities on the river are quite

00:48:12.881 --> 00:48:15.441
poor, they do actually hunt the crocodiles.

00:48:16.041 --> 00:48:20.901
So the vast majority of the crocodiles that we saw were quite small. They were juveniles.

00:48:21.441 --> 00:48:24.661
Anything big had already been scooped up and cooked.

00:48:25.061 --> 00:48:29.501
So I think we only saw across the whole expedition, we probably only saw two

00:48:29.501 --> 00:48:33.661
or three crocodiles that were large enough to be a safety concern for us.

00:48:34.460 --> 00:48:39.040
But we still had to be very, very cautious. So we tried not to end up in the water at any stage.

00:48:39.200 --> 00:48:42.840
We were very careful by the riverbanks and when we were camping,

00:48:43.140 --> 00:48:45.000
we took all sorts of anti-crocodile precautions.

00:48:46.040 --> 00:48:50.940
Beyond that, we saw all sorts of reptiles. So we saw chameleons,

00:48:51.340 --> 00:48:54.540
fantastic, beautiful chameleons as we were trekking along.

00:48:54.840 --> 00:48:58.600
But one of the good things about Madagascar is there's not that many dangerous animals.

00:48:59.120 --> 00:49:03.180
So there are no poisonous snakes or spiders or anything like that.

00:49:03.400 --> 00:49:04.920
So that was always good. while we're camping.

00:49:05.220 --> 00:49:08.260
They don't have hippos, which is absolutely fantastic.

00:49:08.600 --> 00:49:12.580
I think there used to be pygmy hippos on the island, but they went extinct a long time ago.

00:49:12.720 --> 00:49:18.320
So on the Angola expedition in 2016, hippos were a massive headache for us because

00:49:18.320 --> 00:49:20.160
they are very aggressive and territorial.

00:49:20.540 --> 00:49:24.720
They were far bigger safety concern than crocodiles. So it's very nice on this

00:49:24.720 --> 00:49:26.960
expedition in Madagascar to not have to worry about that.

00:49:27.300 --> 00:49:32.360
But we also had bull sharks or Zambezi sharks, and they are a safety concern.

00:49:33.120 --> 00:49:37.320
So especially in the last sort of 100 kilometers, we had to be very, very careful.

00:49:37.480 --> 00:49:42.120
We actually saw one swim straight past us with its fin as we're paddling along.

00:49:42.420 --> 00:49:46.800
So I think they're the only shark that can swim in both salt and freshwater.

00:49:47.000 --> 00:49:50.500
So they tend to go up deltas, up rivers hunting.

00:49:51.040 --> 00:49:53.480
So we had to be very, very careful of them.

00:49:54.040 --> 00:49:57.060
Yeah, I think that's about it, really. Unfortunately, we didn't manage to get

00:49:57.060 --> 00:49:59.580
much of this wildlife on film as we were going.

00:49:59.800 --> 00:50:03.020
Although we did get some of the lemurs, so they made it into the documentary film.

00:50:03.380 --> 00:50:06.980
All right. And I hear there was a leeches to lemur ratio.

00:50:07.795 --> 00:50:12.275
Yes, that's correct. So we got leeches multiple times at the beginning of the

00:50:12.275 --> 00:50:15.115
expedition because we're in the jungle and very wet the whole time.

00:50:15.255 --> 00:50:16.175
So that was a bit disgusting.

00:50:16.975 --> 00:50:19.595
Ben was keeping track of how many times we both got leeches.

00:50:20.055 --> 00:50:23.155
And speaking of exotic wildlife, actually, unfortunately for Ben,

00:50:23.535 --> 00:50:26.895
Ben also managed to contract bilharzia or shisto.

00:50:27.155 --> 00:50:32.175
So he managed to get himself a case of parasitic snails, which was a bit disgusting

00:50:32.175 --> 00:50:36.495
and had a pretty negative impact on his health for a solid three days at the

00:50:36.495 --> 00:50:38.555
beginning of the trip yeah that sounds horrible,

00:50:39.415 --> 00:50:44.755
yeah it wasn't it wasn't great i feel bad for him well leeches are something

00:50:44.755 --> 00:50:50.055
that for me just personally really freaks me out so i don't know if i would be in on that one.

00:50:51.339 --> 00:50:56.599
Yeah, they're kind of disgusting. Yeah. You mentioned a charity earlier.

00:50:56.839 --> 00:50:58.559
Were you supporting a charity along the way?

00:50:59.079 --> 00:51:04.379
Yes, that's correct. So we were supporting a charity called Our Kids, Our Future Madagascar.

00:51:04.519 --> 00:51:07.299
So that's an NGO completely locally run.

00:51:07.559 --> 00:51:10.899
And very simply, it helps to get children back into school.

00:51:11.299 --> 00:51:16.379
So unfortunately, a lot of children miss out on a primary education in Madagascar

00:51:16.379 --> 00:51:21.119
because their families do not have the money to pay for the very limited school

00:51:21.119 --> 00:51:24.359
supplies that are required in order to enroll for a year.

00:51:24.859 --> 00:51:29.219
So education is actually free at the primary level provided by the state,

00:51:29.219 --> 00:51:35.219
but still you need to get a few things together like a notebook and pencil and that sort of thing.

00:51:35.779 --> 00:51:40.719
And sadly, that proves to be a barrier to entry for some children because their

00:51:40.719 --> 00:51:42.779
families simply do not have the money to get this stuff.

00:51:42.919 --> 00:51:47.699
So the charity, very simply, it goes to communities and it finds kids that have

00:51:47.699 --> 00:51:50.479
dropped out of primary school because their families haven't been able to pay

00:51:50.479 --> 00:51:52.559
the fees and they pay the fees for them.

00:51:52.719 --> 00:51:56.239
So it's an extremely efficient way of getting children back into school.

00:51:56.939 --> 00:52:00.739
I'm a teacher by training. I really believe that every child deserves a good

00:52:00.739 --> 00:52:03.519
education. And I just like the concept because it's so efficient.

00:52:03.519 --> 00:52:07.159
I could not believe how cheap it is to get a kid back into school.

00:52:07.399 --> 00:52:09.979
So yeah, all the donations go directly to that.

00:52:10.559 --> 00:52:13.999
All right. Now, how could someone make a connection with that organization?

00:52:14.679 --> 00:52:18.019
So they have a pretty active Facebook page. So if you just look up Our Kids,

00:52:18.159 --> 00:52:21.919
Our Future Madagascar, or we actually have a link to them on our website.

00:52:22.099 --> 00:52:25.419
So we have an official website for the expedition, kayakthemangoki.com.

00:52:25.539 --> 00:52:27.499
And on there, you can just donate if you want to.

00:52:27.759 --> 00:52:31.399
So over the course of the expedition, we raised over 5,000 US dollars for that

00:52:31.399 --> 00:52:34.399
charity, but we are still raising money for them now.

00:52:34.519 --> 00:52:38.839
And I've actually written a book about the expedition and I'm donating 25% of

00:52:38.839 --> 00:52:41.699
the proceeds to Our Kids, Our Future Madagascar as well.

00:52:41.819 --> 00:52:46.819
So hopefully we can keep getting kids back in school over the lifespan of this story.

00:52:47.239 --> 00:52:49.139
Yeah. Tell us about the book and where you can find that.

00:52:50.736 --> 00:52:53.576
So the book has only just come out a few weeks ago, in fact.

00:52:53.736 --> 00:52:57.216
So it's taken a fair old while considering the trip finished in 2022.

00:52:57.636 --> 00:53:01.196
So yeah, I've released the book and a documentary film. So if people are interested

00:53:01.196 --> 00:53:04.476
in watching the film, they can just go onto YouTube, just type in Kayak the

00:53:04.476 --> 00:53:05.576
Mangoki and it'll come up.

00:53:05.776 --> 00:53:08.576
So it's on my YouTube channel, which is Scafidi Travels.

00:53:09.076 --> 00:53:13.576
And if they're interested in buying the book, then it's available as a Kindle

00:53:13.576 --> 00:53:15.416
version, which you can buy on Amazon.

00:53:15.776 --> 00:53:19.736
It's also available as a paperback. And again, that can be found on Amazon,

00:53:19.736 --> 00:53:22.916
or you can find it on our website, kayakthemangokki.com.

00:53:23.456 --> 00:53:25.936
Okay. Now that pronunciation, Mangokki.

00:53:28.556 --> 00:53:32.976
Yeah. So it turns out that we were pronouncing the name of the river wrong for

00:53:32.976 --> 00:53:35.496
the entirety of the expedition, unfortunately.

00:53:35.696 --> 00:53:40.256
So we have a whole month's worth of documentary footage of us on the river saying

00:53:40.256 --> 00:53:42.416
Mangokki, as if that's how you say it.

00:53:42.656 --> 00:53:45.536
And then after we'd finished the expedition, we were

00:53:45.536 --> 00:53:48.296
told that actually no you pronounce it mangok so you

00:53:48.296 --> 00:53:51.236
don't pronounce the y at the end so i have

00:53:51.236 --> 00:53:53.956
to apologize to all the malagasy people listening for getting the name

00:53:53.956 --> 00:53:58.256
of the river slightly wrong so yeah it is it is supposed to be mangok but it's

00:53:58.256 --> 00:54:01.676
now kind of ingrained in my mind that i just say mangoki because that's what

00:54:01.676 --> 00:54:05.156
we said all the way through the expedition all right one other question about

00:54:05.156 --> 00:54:08.916
the educational system now because that that that's fascinating to me does the

00:54:08.916 --> 00:54:12.656
educational system in madagascar reach into all those smaller villages messages.

00:54:13.395 --> 00:54:18.515
To a certain extent, yes. It's actually quite impressive how the penetration

00:54:18.515 --> 00:54:20.815
rates work in terms of those isolated communities.

00:54:21.075 --> 00:54:25.935
So yeah, at the primary level, most kids have access to some form of education.

00:54:26.195 --> 00:54:29.935
I mean, the facilities aren't going to be particularly fancy in places like

00:54:29.935 --> 00:54:31.255
where we were at the source.

00:54:31.435 --> 00:54:35.515
But yes, there's been a big focus from the Malagasy government over the past

00:54:35.515 --> 00:54:40.435
few years to make sure that people do have access to education at the state level.

00:54:40.655 --> 00:54:45.515
And also they've done a lot of work to make sure that they have realigned their

00:54:45.515 --> 00:54:50.535
calendar year to make sure it doesn't clash with important periods of time where

00:54:50.535 --> 00:54:53.795
kids might be pulled out of school otherwise. For example, rice harvest season.

00:54:54.455 --> 00:54:58.615
So they used to have a problem a few years ago where they just kind of mimicked

00:54:58.615 --> 00:55:02.775
the French school calendar year and that didn't work very well because kids

00:55:02.775 --> 00:55:07.255
were getting pulled out of school because they had to help their family with the rice harvest.

00:55:07.495 --> 00:55:11.475
So now they've changed that so that the rice harvest tends to happen during

00:55:11.475 --> 00:55:13.655
holiday periods, which is a really good idea.

00:55:14.155 --> 00:55:19.395
Okay. And from a donation standpoint, how much would it take to keep a child in school for the year?

00:55:20.102 --> 00:55:24.342
A few dollars, really. That's all it takes. It's absolutely incredible.

00:55:24.562 --> 00:55:27.222
So it really is a very, very efficient way of helping someone out.

00:55:27.562 --> 00:55:28.802
Every little bit makes a big difference.

00:55:29.742 --> 00:55:32.902
Absolutely. Good. So if folks want to learn about our kids, our future,

00:55:33.122 --> 00:55:35.282
if they want to find the film, if they want to find the book,

00:55:35.422 --> 00:55:37.122
what's the website again that they would go to?

00:55:38.902 --> 00:55:42.382
Kayakthemangoki.com. Okay. Excellent. We'll make sure we put links to that in

00:55:42.382 --> 00:55:45.842
the show notes so folks can reach out and find that information from there.

00:55:45.942 --> 00:55:47.842
And would they also be able to connect with you on that website?

00:55:48.622 --> 00:55:51.822
Absolutely. There's a contact form on there, or people can connect with me direct

00:55:51.822 --> 00:55:56.462
via my YouTube channel, which is Scafidi Travels. That's where the documentary film is housed.

00:55:57.202 --> 00:56:00.502
Super. Well, again, we'll make sure we put links in the show notes so folks

00:56:00.502 --> 00:56:01.342
can make that connection.

00:56:01.542 --> 00:56:04.902
So, Oscar, thank you very much. This has been fantastic hearing from you and

00:56:04.902 --> 00:56:09.382
learning about your trip down in Madagascar, and I appreciate that.

00:56:09.522 --> 00:56:11.202
One final question that I have for you.

00:56:11.642 --> 00:56:15.002
Oscar, who else would you like to hear as a future guest on Paddling the Blue?

00:56:15.602 --> 00:56:19.142
I would say Ed Stafford. He's a British explorer.

00:56:19.502 --> 00:56:24.522
He walked the Amazon River back in 2008. I think that's his claim to fame.

00:56:24.702 --> 00:56:26.702
But since then, he's gone on and done a lot of things.

00:56:26.882 --> 00:56:31.962
But he has done some, he's done a lot of river-based stuff and he's done some kayaking-based stuff.

00:56:32.082 --> 00:56:35.242
So I think that might be a good enough link for your podcast there.

00:56:35.402 --> 00:56:36.802
So yeah, Ed Stafford. Super.

00:56:37.182 --> 00:56:40.062
All right. Well, I'll connect with you offline and we'll see if we can get in

00:56:40.062 --> 00:56:41.802
touch with Ed and get him on the show.

00:56:41.982 --> 00:56:46.382
So again, Oscar, thank you very much for sharing your trip down the Mangak or

00:56:46.382 --> 00:56:49.242
the Mangaki River, whichever one you choose to pronounce it as.

00:56:49.442 --> 00:56:53.422
And it's been great hearing about that trip. And I wish you the best. What's next?

00:56:54.320 --> 00:56:57.920
Well, Ben and I actually have another expedition in mind already.

00:56:58.060 --> 00:57:03.460
So we are hoping to kayak the Kapuas River, which is the longest river in Indonesia.

00:57:03.900 --> 00:57:05.280
That's on the island of Borneo.

00:57:05.780 --> 00:57:09.760
The plan had originally been to do that this year. So we're going to do it in

00:57:09.760 --> 00:57:12.460
June, July this year, but as always, life gets in the way.

00:57:12.720 --> 00:57:16.880
So perhaps we will be kayaking the Kapuas either in June, July,

00:57:17.040 --> 00:57:20.460
2026 or June, July, 2027. We'll have to see.

00:57:20.760 --> 00:57:23.600
All right. Well, we'll look forward to following along with that trip as well.

00:57:23.600 --> 00:57:27.320
So thank you again. I appreciate the opportunity. It's been great talking to you.

00:57:27.960 --> 00:57:29.900
Thank you very much, John. You're welcome.

00:57:31.320 --> 00:57:35.140
If you want to be a stronger and more efficient paddler, Power to the Paddle

00:57:35.140 --> 00:57:38.800
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And who wouldn't mind that? So visit paddlingexercises.com to get the book and companion DVD.

00:58:17.708 --> 00:58:21.468
Thanks to Oscar for joining today's episode and sharing his experience on the

00:58:21.468 --> 00:58:25.448
Mangok River. Getting there is half, or more than half, of the experience.

00:58:25.688 --> 00:58:29.448
As I mentioned in the beginning, we've hardly had any conversation about Madagascar

00:58:29.448 --> 00:58:31.408
on the show, and it was really nice to add that to the menu.

00:58:31.668 --> 00:58:35.128
I hope you will leave me a voicemail and tell me about a guest in some other

00:58:35.128 --> 00:58:36.888
fascinating part of our world.

00:58:37.268 --> 00:58:40.968
You'll find links to Oscar's website and his socials along with resources that

00:58:40.968 --> 00:58:45.308
he mentioned by visiting the show notes for this episode at paddlingtheblue.com

00:58:45.308 --> 00:58:49.888
slash 158. And of course, you'll also find a link there to pick up his book.

00:58:50.388 --> 00:58:54.428
We'll be making the annual pilgrimage to Quiet Adventures Symposium in Lansing,

00:58:54.548 --> 00:59:00.968
Michigan on February 28, and Canoe Copia on March 13-15, both 2026.

00:59:01.348 --> 00:59:04.828
If you're at either event, please stop by and say hello. We'd love to meet you.

00:59:04.988 --> 00:59:09.108
I have an exhibit booth at Quiet Adventures, and you'll also catch me at the

00:59:09.108 --> 00:59:11.868
P&H Piranha Kayaks booth at Canoe Copia.

00:59:12.288 --> 00:59:16.648
If you're not already a subscriber to OnlineSeaKyaking.com or OnlineWhiteWater.com,

00:59:16.788 --> 00:59:21.468
Use that coupon code PTBpodcast to check out, and you'll get 10% off just for

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being a member of the Paddling the Blue community.

00:59:23.748 --> 00:59:26.548
Thank you very much for listening, as always, and I look forward to bringing

00:59:26.548 --> 00:59:29.248
you the next episode of the Paddling the Blue podcast.

00:59:31.688 --> 00:59:35.248
Thank you for listening to Paddling the Blue. You can subscribe to Paddling

00:59:35.248 --> 00:59:40.548
the Blue on Apple Music, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts.

00:59:40.728 --> 00:59:43.688
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00:59:43.688 --> 00:59:47.968
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00:59:47.968 --> 00:59:52.228
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00:59:52.568 --> 00:59:54.768
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00:59:54.888 --> 00:59:58.048
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