#143 - Amazon Source to Sea Adventure with Darcy Gaechter - Encore Episode

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Welcome to Paddling the Blue. With each episode, we talk with guests from the

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Great Lakes and around the globe who are doing cool things related to sea kayaking.

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I'm your host, my name is John Chase, and let's get started paddling the blue.

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Welcome to today's episode of Paddling the Blue. I was paddling with some friends

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recently, and someone mentioned Darcy Gector.

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Darcy's the author of Amazon Woman, and way back on episode 21,

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she joined me to talk about her 148-day expedition, where she became the only

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woman to have ever paddled the entire length of the Amazon River.

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The paddler I was with was fascinated by Darcy's story, so I thought it would

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be a great opportunity to bring this one back to the top.

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Before we get to today's encore conversation with Darcy, James Stevenson and

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Simon Osborne at OnlineSeekHiking.com continue to produce great content to help

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you evolve as a paddler and as a coach.

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You'll find everything from basic strokes and safety, to paddling in tides,

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surfing, coaching, documentaries, expedition skills and incident management, and more.

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If you're not already a subscriber to OnlineSeaKyaking.com, here is your opportunity to get started.

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Visit OnlineSeaKyaking.com, use the coupon code PTBPODCAST to check out,

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and you'll get 10% off just for being a member of the Paddling the Blue community.

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And for those of you who also enjoy paddling whitewater boats,

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like Darcy, their newest offering is Online Whitewater, and they're offering

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the same discount to listeners.

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Check out Online Whitewater at, you guessed it, OnlineWhitewater.com.

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Use the same code PTBpodcast to check out and explore.

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Darcy's is an inspiring story and it's been fun to hear it again.

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So enjoy today's encore presentation with Darcy Gector.

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Hi Darcy, welcome to Paddling the Blue today.

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Hi John, thanks for having me. I appreciate you joining me. This should be a lot of fun.

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So Darcy, tell our listeners a little bit about your personal paddling background.

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All right, yeah. So I became a raft guide when I was 18 for a summer job.

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You know, kayaking wasn't exactly on my radar at that point.

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But, you know, I was quite young and all the other very cool,

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in my opinion, raft guides were kayakers.

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And so I wanted to spend more time with them. And therefore,

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I thought, well, I have to become a kayaker so I can hang out with these people.

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And so I just started tagging along with them.

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And it was honestly a pretty rocky introduction to the sport because they were

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willing to let me tag along, but not that interested in teaching me like how

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to roll or any real skills that are useful for kayaking.

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So I swam a lot. I got frustrated a lot.

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For some reason, I stuck with it because I guess I could see how fun it could be if I got good at it.

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And so, yeah, that was 24 years ago. And since then, I have gotten better, thankfully.

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I am primarily a whitewater kayaker, and that's what I do for fun.

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That's what I do for my business is guiding whitewater kayaking trips,

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mainly in Ecuador, but also in the Grand Canyon and Middle Fork of the Salmon.

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And the Amazon trip was actually only the second time that I had ever been sea

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kayaking, but I did get like 123 days of practice there.

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So I feel much better about my sea kayaking skills at this point.

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So tell us a little bit about the Amazon Source to Sea trip.

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Yeah, so we started at 15,000 feet in the Andes Mountains in Peru and traveled

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through tons of different ecosystems, a lot of different cultures.

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It was my first time ever traversing an entire watershed, and it was a very

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cool experience. You know, it's obviously not everyone has the luxury to take

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half a year off and go do something like that.

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But I think even on a shorter river, any kind of source to see expedition is

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such a cool way to experience an entire river and see it in all of its different forms.

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So how did this trip come together? So it was the idea of a guy named David

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Midgley, and I'll just call him Midge from now on. That's the nickname he goes by.

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And he was basically having a midlife crisis. He's like a super brilliant computer

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programmer. He lives in London.

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And he, like in his early 30s, started to worry that he was going to waste his

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entire life sitting in front of a computer writing code.

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So he decided that like

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one big adventure would satisfy or maybe

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not satisfy but would like round out his life and

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so he started looking through the adventure

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archives and everything like climbing everest

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sailing around the world he thought it had been overdone and

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he somehow came across the statistic that more people

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had walked on the moon than had descended the amazon

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from source to sea and when Midge heard

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that he decided that is what he would do and

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specifically he wanted to kayak it from source to

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sea because no one had ever kayaked the entire thing

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the people that had previously descended it had either hiked around the white

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water or rafted the white water so Midge said he would be the first one to kayak

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it and when he decided this he had never kayaked before he'd never even sat

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in a kayak. He'd never camped out before.

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He's totally not athletic, but he just decided this is what he would do.

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So he needed to learn how to kayak, obviously.

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And he started, he found my company, which is Small World Adventures in Ecuador.

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And he thought, well, this is perfect.

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Ecuador is like, has a bunch of tributaries to the Amazon.

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I can go learn how to kayak down there.

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And he came with my company for eight years and he stayed like sometimes just

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for two weeks, sometimes for two months.

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But anyway, he eventually built the skills to be a class five kayaker,

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which is what he needed to do to be able to kayak all the whitewater.

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And when he decided he was ready, he invited me and Don Beveridge,

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who's my business partner and life partner, to go with him.

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So that's how I got involved with the whole Amazon expedition was through a crazy British guy.

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So an eight year lead up. It was actually 10 years for him because he joined

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the Regents Canoe Club in London and did some kayaking courses in Europe before he came to Ecuador.

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So he had about two years of practice under his belt before he found us.

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So it was an entire decade of training for him.

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And, you know, to this day, our expedition was seven years ago almost.

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And to this day, I've never met someone who came up with sort of such an outlandish

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goal, but actually had the determination to see it through.

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And yeah, I'm just very impressed. I have a lot of respect for Midgley for that reason.

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Yeah, I mean, you hear about, you know, folks, like you said,

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climbing Everest, for example, or the Seven Summits, and they decide to do that.

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So they've got a big pile of money to throw at the goal.

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And they throw that big pile of money at it for someone to just haul them up the mountain.

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In this case, he spent 10 years figuring out what skills does he need,

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and then how to get there.

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Yeah, and there's some funny things about his training regime.

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He didn't have a driver's license, and I think he was 33 at the time,

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and he decided, well, if I'm going to be a kayaker, I'm going to have to drive myself to the river.

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So he had to start by getting a driver's license. And he found kayaking to be very, very scary.

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So he also took up skydiving because that was the one thing he could think of

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that would be scarier than kayaking.

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So he thought he could sort of put kayaking in perspective that way.

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And he ran a couple of marathons to get his cardiovascular fitness up.

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And he took jungle survival courses.

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Like he really went all in on this idea. Wow.

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So you said 123 days. Was that on the water days? And then you had 148 days for the trip total.

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Is that right? Yeah, that was the 123 days was just the flat water portion.

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So we had 25 days of white water in the headwaters, and then 123 days of flat water after that.

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So you switch boats, you did sea kayaks for 123 days and then whitewater boats for the other 25?

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Yep, that's correct. Okay. All right. So let's hear about the trip itself.

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Give us a kind of a rundown of the trip.

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It's such a long trip. It's kind of hard to summarize in a few sentences.

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But at the beginning of the trip, you know, we kayaked across a big lake and

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hiked up the mountainside looking for the highest elevation flowing water that we could find.

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And it was the trickle was like two inches wide there.

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So obviously we couldn't kayak it, but we hiked up to the highest flowing water

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we could find. Then we hiked back down to the lake, kayaked across the lake,

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and could stay in our boats, I mean, more or less, from there on out.

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And the first few days, it was kind of silly. Like, we were in irrigation ditches and wetlands.

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But eventually, the river built and built and built. And after 10 days,

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we dropped into, like, the real whitewater canyons. We had about 15 days of,

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like, class 4-plus to 5-plus whitewater.

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And it was medium volume and quite steep, so really challenging whitewater.

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And Midge did quite well.

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You know, he had a few minor incidents, but nothing major.

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And then on the 26th day of the expedition, we hit the flat water,

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switched into our sea kayaks.

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And for about the next month, we were in an area that Peru refers to as the Red Zone.

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And that's basically sort of a notoriously dangerous part of the river.

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And it's mainly dangerous.

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The indigenous people there are called the Ashanika, and they are very justifiably

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protective of their land and their people.

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And basically, for the last couple hundred years, any outsiders who have come

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in there have wanted to kill them or take something from them.

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And some of the problems in there now are there's a huge drug trade.

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In 2012, Peru overtook Colombia as the number one cocaine-producing country in the world.

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So there's huge illegal drug trade, leftover insurgents from the Shining Path

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movement now work for the drug trade.

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There's a lot of illegal logging that happens there.

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And so when people are moving in or coming through this territory,

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they're usually engaged in one of these activities because tourism is not a thing there.

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We had we spent a lot of time getting permission letters

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from the ishanika and we hired a

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local to follow us in a motorized canoe

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so that they could hopefully help us

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with any uncomfortable situations and this was a very stressful part of the

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expedition for me because in the years leading up to when we went there had

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been six tourists that we knew that passed through and two of them were murdered

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and one more was shot but he survived and so these weren't great odds in my

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mind and I was very stressed out about this.

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But with our permission letters, which basically just told them what we were

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doing, that we just wanted to pass through, we didn't want to stay or take anything,

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they were incredibly kind and open to us.

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As soon as we showed our passports in these letters, they would welcome us into

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their towns, say that we could camp on their beaches.

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But it was interesting, you know, as a leftover basically of the Shining Path,

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which was a lot of people call it Peru's civil war.

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All these little towns have a guard posted on their beach with a shotgun and

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someone is there 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and they just rotate through.

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And these aren't police or military, it's just local members of the community

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and, you know, just really looking out for themselves.

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So anyway, that was, yeah, we were in there for about 30 days in the red zone.

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Oh, we also got an escort from the Peruvian Navy for the last two weeks that we were in the red zone.

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And then after that, we kind of didn't have the threat of whitewater or the

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threat of the red zone anymore.

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So within that red zone, did you seek all that permission ahead of time and

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hire the local guide ahead of time? Or did you do much of that while you were there?

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The permission letters we arranged in Lima before the expedition.

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So we We did a lot of preparation back home for Don and I in the U.S.,

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for Midge in the U.K., and then we also spent about a week in Lima before the expedition,

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and yeah, one of the things we did during that week was get the permission letters.

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And the Ashanika have sort of an organized governing body that,

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you know, that's helping them fight dams, fight the illegal logging.

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And so we talked to the president of that organization who tried fairly hard

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to talk us out of paddling through this region for safety reasons.

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But in the end, we convinced her, you know, we had to do this for the integrity

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of the expedition. And she gave us the permission letters, which were extremely

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helpful. Yeah, it sounds it.

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All right. So you come out of the red zone. Yes. And then we were bored because

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we didn't have these external threats to our lives anymore.

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So we started fighting a bit more with each other at that point.

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And, you know, it didn't really for like the middle month or maybe a month and

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a half, nothing overly exciting happened.

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We did get to see pink Amazonian river dolphins almost every day,

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which was awesome. Yeah.

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And, you know, tons of interactions with the locals. I got to play volleyball

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with women in these tiny villages at night, and they were really,

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really good at volleyball, which was a cool surprise.

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And then, yeah, I guess about the time we were approaching Manaus,

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which was maybe we had a month and a half to go at that point.

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Thing the conditions got more challenging again

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we got like constant upriver wind i

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don't know how many whitewater kayakers will be listening but you

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know like a good gradient on a whitewater river is like

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80 feet per drop 80 feet of

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elevation drop per mile that you go down the river in the amazon the average

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is like once the flat water begins the average is like one inch of gradient

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loss per mile that you paddle down the river that's brutal it's really flat

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And when we ended up, when we got into these windy areas,

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if we stopped paddling even for a couple seconds, we would just get blown back up the river.

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And we were getting lots of storms, which made pretty big waves.

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And so then we had to start paying attention again.

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And with about 600 miles to go, we started feeling tides because tides come

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up the Amazon quite a long ways.

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At first, we could successfully paddle against them.

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But eventually, they got so strong that we'd basically paddle five or six hours

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as the tide was going out and then have to sit out five or six hours as the tide was coming back in.

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And one thing that was really cool on the expedition for most of the flat water,

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there was a very distinct high water line.

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And we were there at low water because that was the safest thing to do for the whitewater sections.

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And we could always see this high water line that was consistently about 40

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feet above where we were paddling.

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And once we got into the tidal zone, though, you kind of lose solid ground.

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So there's no more beaches or anything like that.

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It's mainly like mud flats and mangrove swamps

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and everything gets so wide this

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is the part of the river you can't see across anymore and there

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was no more like high and low water dictated by

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the rainy season it was just high and low tide now so at this point all the

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houses all the villages were built on stilts and they were all built the stilts

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were about 20 feet high because the tide fluctuates between 15 and 20 feet twice

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a day every day there's just a complete change in the landscape,

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which was really cool for us to see.

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And then, yeah, after 148 days of that, we finally made it to our little waypoint

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that we pre-programmed into our GPS out in the Atlantic Ocean.

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That's pretty cool. So there's something about dynamite. Yes,

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that was in the whitewater section.

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So we kayaked down the Montaro River, and from 1950 to 2012,

00:16:14.276 --> 00:16:19.436
the whole geographical world agreed that the Apurimac River was the source of the Amazon.

00:16:19.876 --> 00:16:26.756
But in 2012, a guy named Rocky Contos discovered that the Montaro was actually 47 miles longer.

00:16:26.936 --> 00:16:29.796
So we switched our plans and we started on the Montaro.

00:16:30.096 --> 00:16:35.196
And the Montaro already has two dams on it. And they're building a third of.

00:16:35.725 --> 00:16:42.405
And so a guy named West Hansen had paddled or he rafted through the river the

00:16:42.405 --> 00:16:46.745
year before our expedition. And he had warned us that they were doing construction

00:16:46.745 --> 00:16:49.025
and he didn't know what the construction was for at that point.

00:16:49.085 --> 00:16:53.665
But he said they were using dynamite and it was a dangerous situation for them.

00:16:53.685 --> 00:16:57.565
So we figured out beforehand that they're building a new dam.

00:16:57.565 --> 00:17:00.765
And again during our preparatory time

00:17:00.765 --> 00:17:04.585
in Lima we talked to the project manager and

00:17:04.585 --> 00:17:07.545
talked to him about paddling through and he also tried

00:17:07.545 --> 00:17:13.585
to dissuade us from kayaking through this area but Midge convinced him that

00:17:13.585 --> 00:17:17.605
again for the integrity of the expedition we had to do this and he agreed to

00:17:17.605 --> 00:17:23.225
have his team stop dynamiting when we got there so we kayaked until we saw like

00:17:23.225 --> 00:17:26.685
this tiny little construction trailer on the canyon rim,

00:17:26.865 --> 00:17:28.905
which is about a thousand feet above the river level.

00:17:29.085 --> 00:17:32.765
But we also had the coordinates from West Hansen's journey the year before.

00:17:32.905 --> 00:17:36.665
And so we got there, we got the satellite phone out, called them and said,

00:17:36.765 --> 00:17:40.325
hey, we're here. Could you stop dynamiting? And they said, okay, you've got three hours.

00:17:41.065 --> 00:17:45.445
And because they had done so much work, you know, they were dynamiting to build

00:17:45.445 --> 00:17:49.785
a road down into the works area and it's a sheer walled canyon.

00:17:50.125 --> 00:17:52.125
So they had been very active.

00:17:52.485 --> 00:17:57.065
And they had just blown pieces of the cliff off. And so pieces of rock,

00:17:57.165 --> 00:18:01.725
like the size of houses, the size of buses, were laying in the river.

00:18:01.885 --> 00:18:05.925
And there was sections where the river was going underneath all the rocks instead

00:18:05.925 --> 00:18:09.645
of over the rocks, like in a normal river. So we had to do a lot of portaging.

00:18:10.185 --> 00:18:18.425
A lot of the portages required rope work. And it was just a very dangerous and unnatural setting,

00:18:18.625 --> 00:18:21.605
you know, and all the banks, if we could walk, just, you know,

00:18:21.705 --> 00:18:25.385
walk around a rapid without using ropes, everything was so unstable.

00:18:25.385 --> 00:18:28.185
It was like walking along the base of a massive landslide.

00:18:28.605 --> 00:18:34.565
And it took us, I can't exactly remember, but five or six hours to get through the construction zone.

00:18:34.745 --> 00:18:39.365
And so I was also convinced that they were going to start dynamiting at any second because there's

00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:44.179
We couldn't see any workers because they were working so high up on the canyon walls.

00:18:44.319 --> 00:18:48.439
And so I also assumed that they couldn't see us to know where we were,

00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:49.459
if we were still in there or not.

00:18:49.559 --> 00:18:52.859
But they did not start dynamiting again, and we did make it through.

00:18:53.039 --> 00:18:57.919
But we had a couple of close calls, including that was Midge's closest call

00:18:57.919 --> 00:19:02.339
of the expedition in one of the biggest must-run rapids in that canyon.

00:19:02.999 --> 00:19:06.519
But I don't want to tell the whole story because it'll ruin the book. All right.

00:19:06.999 --> 00:19:11.419
All right. I won't push it. done. What did you find most unexpected?

00:19:12.379 --> 00:19:16.999
The mental and emotional challenge for me was the most unexpected.

00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:20.459
You know, I've always been a fairly decent athlete.

00:19:20.519 --> 00:19:26.059
And just always, when I think of preparing for something, I just think of physical preparations.

00:19:26.979 --> 00:19:31.199
And, you know, the Amazon was no different. But I didn't, for a second,

00:19:31.419 --> 00:19:36.199
think like, oh, how should I mentally and emotionally prepare for an expedition

00:19:36.199 --> 00:19:40.879
this long for being stuck with the same three people for 148 days without any

00:19:40.879 --> 00:19:41.739
kind of break whatsoever.

00:19:42.479 --> 00:19:47.039
It sounds stupid saying it out loud now, but that was a big surprise to me how

00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:49.639
challenging that aspect of the expedition was.

00:19:49.899 --> 00:19:53.259
So how did you both physically and mentally prepare for the trip?

00:19:54.621 --> 00:19:57.501
Well, I didn't mentally prepare, and that was definitely part of the problem.

00:19:58.361 --> 00:20:04.561
But physically, so Don and I in the wintertime, our season in Ecuador is basically

00:20:04.561 --> 00:20:07.981
end of October until the first or second week of March.

00:20:08.301 --> 00:20:12.401
And during that time, we normally kayak and work every single day.

00:20:12.601 --> 00:20:18.741
So it's like 120 days or more of kayaking in a row. So that was pretty good

00:20:18.741 --> 00:20:23.261
physical preparation for a trip like the Amazon, where you have to get up and

00:20:23.261 --> 00:20:24.581
go kayaking every single day.

00:20:24.981 --> 00:20:29.541
We started the expedition in July. So leading up to that, we did with Midge

00:20:29.541 --> 00:20:31.201
some overnight kayaking trips.

00:20:31.621 --> 00:20:34.701
Midge had not done an overnight kayaking trip up to that point.

00:20:34.701 --> 00:20:40.181
So we wanted him to get some training paddling with a heavy kayak and how much different that is.

00:20:40.661 --> 00:20:44.601
So yeah, basically just going kayaking a lot was how we physically prepared.

00:20:44.601 --> 00:20:47.461
Yeah like I said it just sounds really stupid to

00:20:47.461 --> 00:20:50.161
say but I really didn't take a

00:20:50.161 --> 00:20:53.641
second to think of the mental preparation but that

00:20:53.641 --> 00:20:56.881
is like the biggest thing I've learned from the Amazon is I

00:20:56.881 --> 00:21:02.621
guess two things number one how a very slight change in my attitude or my perception

00:21:02.621 --> 00:21:07.421
of things can make like a world of difference in how I feel about a situation

00:21:07.421 --> 00:21:12.701
that I learned on the Amazon because of my lack of preparation on the mental

00:21:12.701 --> 00:21:14.381
side of things and I was kind of like

00:21:14.821 --> 00:21:17.001
losing it around day 120.

00:21:17.301 --> 00:21:21.701
I was really frustrated by Midge and his pace. And I wanted to be on my own

00:21:21.701 --> 00:21:24.321
program, go at my own pace, get off the river sooner.

00:21:24.561 --> 00:21:28.761
And I just felt like Midge and all we had a support boat at that point,

00:21:28.881 --> 00:21:30.701
all these other little things were slowing me down.

00:21:30.801 --> 00:21:34.341
And I just kind of, you know, really almost got driven to the point of like

00:21:34.341 --> 00:21:38.021
a mental breakdown. And that's when I realized, why am I in a hurry?

00:21:38.161 --> 00:21:42.181
Why do I want to get off this river? Why can't I just be happy going at whatever pace.

00:21:42.381 --> 00:21:47.261
And as soon as I like talked myself into that, then I had a great time for the rest of the trip.

00:21:47.281 --> 00:21:51.821
But it was like a couple of weeks of agony to try to convince myself of that.

00:21:52.441 --> 00:21:54.101
What did you enjoy most about the experience?

00:21:54.937 --> 00:21:58.757
That's a good question. I almost immediately when I think of the Amazon,

00:21:58.957 --> 00:22:01.357
I think of the pink Amazonian river dolphins.

00:22:01.937 --> 00:22:06.497
I had read Joe Kane's book before we went called Running the Amazon,

00:22:06.497 --> 00:22:10.257
and he was part of the first team that descended the Amazon source to see.

00:22:10.877 --> 00:22:14.417
And he talked about some infrequent sightings of the dolphins.

00:22:14.417 --> 00:22:18.557
He talked about how they were possibly being driven to extinction.

00:22:18.557 --> 00:22:21.897
So I was worried that we might not get to see any.

00:22:22.037 --> 00:22:25.797
And I was really hoping going into the trip that we could see one pink dolphin.

00:22:26.077 --> 00:22:31.077
We saw our first one on the 30th day of the expedition, and we saw them almost

00:22:31.077 --> 00:22:33.277
every single day till the end.

00:22:33.537 --> 00:22:38.457
They were pretty funny looking. They're really big. They have this big bulbous head.

00:22:38.757 --> 00:22:44.077
When they surface to breathe, they make a sound that sounds a lot like a fart.

00:22:44.377 --> 00:22:48.037
They're just really funny animals. Even in our lowest moments,

00:22:48.057 --> 00:22:51.817
if we were fighting or we were tired or whatever, Whenever we would see the

00:22:51.817 --> 00:22:57.377
dolphins, it just really lifted everybody's spirits and was a really nice part of the expedition.

00:22:57.717 --> 00:23:00.197
Well, I mean, farts are funny. They are funny.

00:23:02.357 --> 00:23:07.677
Especially when dolphins do that. Sure. So how about other wildlife along the way?

00:23:08.037 --> 00:23:11.057
We saw tons of bird life, which was awesome.

00:23:11.057 --> 00:23:17.517
We saw the most mammals in the whitewater canyons because the Montaro canyons

00:23:17.517 --> 00:23:22.437
cut like a crazy chasm through the Andes Mountains. And a lot of it was really

00:23:22.437 --> 00:23:24.897
inaccessible to people that weren't in boats.

00:23:25.117 --> 00:23:31.017
So we saw river otters, we saw fox, deer, a fair amount of mammals in there.

00:23:31.237 --> 00:23:35.837
Once we got to the flatwater part of the river, it's very populated.

00:23:35.837 --> 00:23:39.837
I don't know how much people think about that when they think about the Amazon.

00:23:39.837 --> 00:23:43.417
But like we never went a day without seeing at least one village.

00:23:43.817 --> 00:23:47.057
And there's tons of boat traffic because there's not many roads there.

00:23:47.157 --> 00:23:49.237
So everybody uses the river as the main highway.

00:23:49.857 --> 00:23:54.657
And so I think most of the animals get scared away or get hunted by locals.

00:23:55.117 --> 00:23:58.257
So we didn't see that many mammals down there besides the dolphins.

00:23:58.477 --> 00:24:02.757
We did get to see caiman one night, you know, just by shining our flashlights

00:24:02.757 --> 00:24:08.797
along the bank. And we saw one very small anaconda. and the rest of what we

00:24:08.797 --> 00:24:11.817
saw was mainly fish and really amazing bird life.

00:24:12.237 --> 00:24:15.417
So I think when a lot of people think, and myself included, when they think

00:24:15.417 --> 00:24:18.277
Amazon, they think wild and remote.

00:24:18.757 --> 00:24:22.697
And it sounds like there were stretches where it was wild and remote,

00:24:22.857 --> 00:24:25.837
but like you said, you had a lot of the river where it's populated.

00:24:25.837 --> 00:24:27.697
Is that right? Yeah, definitely.

00:24:28.197 --> 00:24:32.777
So the whitewater sections were all quite remote. Flatwater sections were all

00:24:32.777 --> 00:24:39.117
quite populated, but it still definitely has a remote feeling. And there's a story...

00:24:40.137 --> 00:24:44.577
I was talking earlier about the illegal logging, and a lot of indigenous people

00:24:44.577 --> 00:24:47.857
have started groups to fight against these illegal loggers.

00:24:48.257 --> 00:24:53.437
Maybe three years before our expedition, one of those indigenous leaders got

00:24:53.437 --> 00:24:59.877
murdered by the illegal logging people. The people in his village wanted to go report his murder.

00:25:00.097 --> 00:25:03.857
They were trying to get to the city of Pucallpa, where the nearest police were.

00:25:04.037 --> 00:25:09.157
And it took them six days by motorized canoe to get there just to report that

00:25:09.157 --> 00:25:13.417
a murder had happened. And so even though there are lots of towns,

00:25:13.417 --> 00:25:15.937
it still has a very remote feeling.

00:25:16.357 --> 00:25:21.777
You know, there's a handful of bigger cities like Pucallpa, Iquitos, Manaus.

00:25:22.017 --> 00:25:24.457
But for the most part, they're pretty small villages.

00:25:24.957 --> 00:25:29.157
Again, no like police force or very little military presence.

00:25:29.477 --> 00:25:35.737
And so lots of people, yes, but still kind of a wilderness wild feeling,

00:25:35.737 --> 00:25:40.017
I guess, if that makes sense. So it sounds like exploitation of the people and

00:25:40.017 --> 00:25:41.917
the land is a big problem.

00:25:42.497 --> 00:25:46.157
Yeah, it definitely is a big problem. And I think it's not getting any better

00:25:46.157 --> 00:25:48.937
with the current president of Brazil, unfortunately.

00:25:49.577 --> 00:25:52.357
So what were your biggest learnings from the experience?

00:25:53.137 --> 00:25:59.397
Well, yeah, the one thing that I touched on before that I really take away from the Amazon is,

00:25:59.577 --> 00:26:05.237
you know, when things aren't going my way or not panning out like I would like them to,

00:26:05.237 --> 00:26:08.277
I just really work hard on my

00:26:08.277 --> 00:26:11.677
mental state my perception of what's happening because like

00:26:11.677 --> 00:26:14.617
I said that I just learned how what an amazing

00:26:14.617 --> 00:26:20.837
effect that can have you know I could look at a problem and treat it as a fun

00:26:20.837 --> 00:26:24.677
interesting challenge to overcome and have a really good attitude about it or

00:26:24.677 --> 00:26:30.697
I can look at a problem as a oh god why is this happening to me you know woe

00:26:30.697 --> 00:26:34.057
is me kind of attitude and then feel sort of powerless against it.

00:26:34.277 --> 00:26:40.517
I think I was fairly decent at that before, but I just never realized what I was doing.

00:26:40.757 --> 00:26:46.197
And the Amazon made me think much more consciously about how I tackle problems

00:26:46.197 --> 00:26:50.177
in my life. And that has been really helpful in all aspects,

00:26:50.317 --> 00:26:53.257
not just kayaking, but business, relationships, anything.

00:26:54.559 --> 00:27:00.559
Good advice. Any particularly sketchy moments where you thought, this is it, we're done?

00:27:01.039 --> 00:27:06.839
I had a moment where I felt that way about Midge in the dam construction site

00:27:06.839 --> 00:27:13.639
where he, there was a rapid we had to run because there was just no way to walk around it.

00:27:13.899 --> 00:27:19.179
And he messed up the line and it was a class five rapid, maybe class five plus.

00:27:19.459 --> 00:27:23.699
And usually in those situations, messing up does not have a great outcome.

00:27:24.099 --> 00:27:28.599
But Midge both did a great job and got lucky and he turned out okay.

00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:33.219
But really, when I saw him make the mistake, I thought that that is it for Midge.

00:27:34.099 --> 00:27:39.859
And then we had one sort of tense interaction with a group of Ashanaka people

00:27:39.859 --> 00:27:45.039
who we knew with our permission letters, they came along with a series of towns

00:27:45.039 --> 00:27:46.359
that we had to check in at.

00:27:46.479 --> 00:27:50.279
So we knew certain checkpoints we needed to stop at. And this was not one of

00:27:50.279 --> 00:27:52.599
them, but they still wanted us to come and talk.

00:27:53.059 --> 00:27:59.479
It started out as a really tense interaction, and they made us turn off all the GoPros that we had.

00:27:59.699 --> 00:28:03.619
They wanted to know what our spot devices were, why they were flashing.

00:28:04.239 --> 00:28:07.679
And we definitely had this sense of impending doom.

00:28:08.679 --> 00:28:12.459
But then, you know, that was mainly, I think, because of stories we had read

00:28:12.459 --> 00:28:17.179
and because how we expected the Ashanika to react to foreigners.

00:28:17.719 --> 00:28:23.599
But they gave us basically a long lecture about why they needed to keep their

00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:27.619
people safe, why they are wary of outsiders like us.

00:28:27.779 --> 00:28:32.099
And after the lecture was done, they said, well, we're not mad at you guys because

00:28:32.099 --> 00:28:33.739
you're foreigners. You didn't know any better.

00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:37.539
But, you know, I said we had a local guy in a motorized canoe with us.

00:28:37.619 --> 00:28:40.799
They said, well, Cesar was his name, is his name.

00:28:41.079 --> 00:28:45.259
They said, well, he needs to get punished because he should have known better.

00:28:45.479 --> 00:28:51.179
And so we all sat there for a few very tense moments wondering what punishment meant to them.

00:28:51.459 --> 00:28:56.139
And then the guy said, you have to do 50 pushups as your punishment.

00:28:57.439 --> 00:29:01.759
And I was thinking, you know, we're speaking in Spanish, which is their second

00:29:01.759 --> 00:29:03.299
language. It's our second language.

00:29:03.579 --> 00:29:10.439
And the word plancha for pushup in Ecuador also means like to grill or to iron.

00:29:10.779 --> 00:29:13.499
And so I definitely had a second of like okay is he

00:29:13.499 --> 00:29:16.559
being funny and saying push-ups or is he gonna do something

00:29:16.559 --> 00:29:20.759
really horrible to Cesar and then everyone on the beach started laughing and

00:29:20.759 --> 00:29:24.559
Cesar started laughing so then I knew okay he just has to do some push-ups and

00:29:24.559 --> 00:29:29.579
it it ended up being a great interaction but we had a few minutes of like what

00:29:29.579 --> 00:29:33.839
is gonna happen here yeah so would you consider doing it again,

00:29:34.839 --> 00:29:37.939
no okay I feel very fortunate it.

00:29:38.716 --> 00:29:45.036
That I did it and that we made it. But I think the Amazon region has gotten more dangerous.

00:29:45.036 --> 00:29:51.676
In 2016, a British woman named Emma Kelty was kayaking down the flatwater section

00:29:51.676 --> 00:29:56.396
in Brazil by herself, and she got murdered by a local gang there.

00:29:57.096 --> 00:30:01.296
And I pay a lot more attention to the region now than I did before,

00:30:01.416 --> 00:30:03.936
but I hear so many stories of violence.

00:30:04.156 --> 00:30:09.456
And we did take a lot of precautions as a group, but I also believe that part

00:30:09.456 --> 00:30:11.036
of why we made it was just luck.

00:30:11.136 --> 00:30:16.076
And so I don't feel like I need to push my luck again. I would love to do source

00:30:16.076 --> 00:30:17.976
to see on another river somewhere.

00:30:18.316 --> 00:30:23.476
I guess I should also back up a little bit and say that we had amazing interactions,

00:30:24.036 --> 00:30:29.776
with all of the people that we talked to on the Amazon and they showed us nothing

00:30:29.776 --> 00:30:33.516
but kindness and they were very friendly. They offered to help.

00:30:33.896 --> 00:30:38.576
And so we didn't actually have any bad experiences. And so my fear is all based

00:30:38.576 --> 00:30:40.776
on what has happened to other people down there.

00:30:40.996 --> 00:30:46.036
But again, I just can't help but feel that some of our success was due to luck

00:30:46.036 --> 00:30:50.276
and happy I did it once and that'll be enough. So what's next for Darcy?

00:30:50.756 --> 00:30:55.156
Like I said, we really enjoyed the source to see experience and it was such

00:30:55.156 --> 00:31:00.036
a great way to experience a river and a whole watershed.

00:31:00.716 --> 00:31:06.416
So we've got three Source to Sea rivers planned in northern British Columbia.

00:31:06.856 --> 00:31:10.276
And of course, we can't go to Canada right now because of the pandemic.

00:31:10.536 --> 00:31:13.896
But so hopefully this will happen in like late summer of 2021.

00:31:14.356 --> 00:31:20.076
But they're a lot shorter than the Amazon. All the rivers that we want to do

00:31:20.076 --> 00:31:23.096
are about like 300 to 400 miles long.

00:31:23.236 --> 00:31:27.216
But they all start on what the locals call the Sacred Plateau.

00:31:27.556 --> 00:31:30.436
And it's the Stikine, the Skeena, and the Nass River.

00:31:30.956 --> 00:31:34.516
And, yeah, we're really excited to do those three from source to sea.

00:31:35.276 --> 00:31:41.036
Very cool. It doesn't all have to be as long as the Amazon, but everybody has

00:31:41.036 --> 00:31:45.676
their own their own definition of what adventure looks like and want to experience it different ways.

00:31:46.256 --> 00:31:50.396
Yes, for sure. What advice might you give to someone who's planning a big expedition?

00:31:51.036 --> 00:31:53.236
I guess a couple of things.

00:31:54.101 --> 00:31:59.801
The amount of logistics on an expedition that big are huge.

00:32:00.141 --> 00:32:03.941
You know, we knew that going in and we did a lot of pre-trip planning.

00:32:04.381 --> 00:32:09.101
But also kind of the nature of South America is that a lot of things have to

00:32:09.101 --> 00:32:11.221
happen kind of last minute and on the fly.

00:32:11.221 --> 00:32:15.401
And so we spent a lot of time, you know, we'd kayak all day long and get to

00:32:15.401 --> 00:32:19.441
camp and be pretty tired, just want to eat dinner, go to bed,

00:32:19.581 --> 00:32:22.661
but have to like bust out the satellite phone and keep working on logistics.

00:32:22.681 --> 00:32:26.681
And that was like another mental adjustment that I had to make was like,

00:32:26.761 --> 00:32:29.661
okay, when you get to camp, your day's not done. In some ways,

00:32:29.821 --> 00:32:33.161
like the hardest part would start then because kayaking, you know,

00:32:33.201 --> 00:32:34.861
that was pretty fun being on the water all day.

00:32:34.981 --> 00:32:39.021
That's all enjoyable. but then to get done and have to be like,

00:32:39.121 --> 00:32:41.961
okay, where are the sea kayaks? Are they in route or not?

00:32:42.581 --> 00:32:46.621
You know, I don't think it's really possible to get all of the logistics done

00:32:46.621 --> 00:32:49.981
before a trip of this length, because things are going to change and you're

00:32:49.981 --> 00:32:51.221
going to have to adjust plans.

00:32:51.661 --> 00:32:56.361
But just being mentally prepared to have to deal with a lot of that stuff as

00:32:56.361 --> 00:33:00.601
you go and maybe even schedule time in it, you know, only kayak seven hours

00:33:00.601 --> 00:33:03.761
instead of eight hours or something. So you have more time for logistics.

00:33:04.141 --> 00:33:07.661
Yeah, I guess just like the mental side in general would...

00:33:08.495 --> 00:33:12.915
Be something I would recommend people focus on. Physical fitness wise,

00:33:13.175 --> 00:33:16.415
it's like, it's great to be prepared, but you're also going to get more and

00:33:16.415 --> 00:33:20.935
more physically fit as you go down, you know, get into your expedition.

00:33:21.275 --> 00:33:25.615
So spending more time than you think necessary on the mental side of things

00:33:25.615 --> 00:33:27.235
would be a good suggestion.

00:33:27.575 --> 00:33:31.235
What equipment did you use in the trip? Well, we had all kinds of stuff.

00:33:31.435 --> 00:33:34.255
So yeah, we started out in whitewater kayaks.

00:33:34.475 --> 00:33:40.155
We We all had tents at the beginning and Don and I kept using our tent all the

00:33:40.155 --> 00:33:43.575
way down and mid switched to like just a mesh bug net.

00:33:43.755 --> 00:33:48.055
Once we got to the warmer climates, we used jet boils.

00:33:48.315 --> 00:33:55.115
We mainly had dehydrated meals. Like we all brought 50 days worth of dehydrated meals.

00:33:55.815 --> 00:34:01.135
I'm vegan and the boys are not so I actually brought like 90 days worth of dehydrated

00:34:01.135 --> 00:34:05.695
meals because I didn't know how soon we would get to populated enough areas

00:34:05.695 --> 00:34:10.015
where I could buy food and we figured the boys could buy fish pretty early on

00:34:10.015 --> 00:34:12.435
and we used a jet boil for cooking.

00:34:13.155 --> 00:34:20.815
The water we used camelback ub filters for treating the water we all had spot

00:34:20.815 --> 00:34:24.215
devices to track our progress down the river.

00:34:24.535 --> 00:34:28.275
And luckily, because Midge is a brilliant computer programmer,

00:34:28.515 --> 00:34:32.495
he wrote his own program to keep track of all of our data because with Spot,

00:34:32.735 --> 00:34:36.235
it only keeps track of seven days worth and then it starts deleting it.

00:34:36.375 --> 00:34:41.135
So Midge wrote his own program. So it would keep all of our tracks for the whole

00:34:41.135 --> 00:34:42.715
five months of the expedition.

00:34:43.115 --> 00:34:46.355
Yeah, I think that was the key gear. I mean, we had so much stuff,

00:34:46.475 --> 00:34:48.055
it really was ridiculous at some point.

00:34:49.475 --> 00:34:53.215
Now, you said that you had a support crew. Tell us about the support crew and

00:34:53.215 --> 00:34:55.035
the size of the crew and how often you met the crew.

00:34:55.695 --> 00:34:59.455
We changed support crews a lot on the way down the river.

00:34:59.595 --> 00:35:03.835
The first 10 days, we actually had West Hanson and his wife,

00:35:03.995 --> 00:35:05.895
Lizette, and they rented a van.

00:35:06.235 --> 00:35:10.495
There was pretty frequent road access in the first 10 days of the expeditions.

00:35:10.715 --> 00:35:14.555
They would drive the van, we would kayak, and we would try to meet up pretty

00:35:14.555 --> 00:35:16.615
much every night in the first 10 days.

00:35:16.615 --> 00:35:20.115
Then in the harder whitewater sections

00:35:20.115 --> 00:35:23.235
there was there was only like two road access

00:35:23.235 --> 00:35:28.735
points and we found a guy a peruvian guy in one of the towns with a pickup truck

00:35:28.735 --> 00:35:33.355
who was willing to do food drops for us so we packaged up a bunch of food and

00:35:33.355 --> 00:35:37.515
we gave it to him and we said you know be at these coordinates on this date

00:35:37.515 --> 00:35:42.575
and so he did two food drops for us for the whitewater sections and,

00:35:43.082 --> 00:35:49.542
Then in the red zone, we had a total of five different motorized canoe drivers

00:35:49.542 --> 00:35:53.202
who would more or less follow us along.

00:35:53.342 --> 00:35:57.282
We always met up at camp with those guys, and they would stick pretty close to us during the day.

00:35:57.862 --> 00:36:04.222
And then on the 50th day of the expedition, we got a bigger support boat called

00:36:04.222 --> 00:36:08.422
the Paralita that came up from Brazil to meet us.

00:36:08.522 --> 00:36:14.282
And we were with them until almost the very end. And we had to split ways the

00:36:14.282 --> 00:36:18.602
last few days because the conditions out towards the ocean were too rough and

00:36:18.602 --> 00:36:20.902
they didn't feel good about going out there.

00:36:21.102 --> 00:36:24.562
So that was our different modes of support.

00:36:24.862 --> 00:36:28.162
It definitely takes a village. It does. It does.

00:36:28.402 --> 00:36:33.602
So you have a book out, Amazon Woman, and that book chronicles your story.

00:36:33.782 --> 00:36:36.862
So tell us a little bit about the book. I've always been somewhat interested

00:36:36.862 --> 00:36:41.342
in writing and had done a fair amount for the business about like river conservation

00:36:41.342 --> 00:36:46.042
Kayaking in ecuador stuff like that I had never written anything as long as

00:36:46.042 --> 00:36:51.702
a book and I thought well Kayaking in the amazon if we succeed in this it will be, you know,

00:36:51.762 --> 00:36:55.142
finally something worth writing a book about So I did keep like a journal a

00:36:55.142 --> 00:36:56.622
notebook for the entire expedition,

00:36:57.502 --> 00:37:01.922
And then I got home and I thought okay, i'm gonna bust out the book this winter

00:37:01.922 --> 00:37:06.082
we got home in January and I figured I'd have it done by spring.

00:37:07.002 --> 00:37:10.082
And then six and a half years later, I finally got it published.

00:37:10.082 --> 00:37:13.502
But I was very clueless when I started the project.

00:37:13.762 --> 00:37:19.382
Like I didn't know what a literary agent was, what a book proposal was,

00:37:19.382 --> 00:37:22.662
and it was a huge learning experience.

00:37:22.962 --> 00:37:26.982
And, you know, I kind of say that writing the book was like my Amazon,

00:37:27.242 --> 00:37:31.082
you know, that's the longest I've ever worked towards something,

00:37:31.462 --> 00:37:35.242
you know, personally, you know, mid work 10 years for his Amazon expedition.

00:37:35.242 --> 00:37:39.482
I worked six and a half years for the book writing and publishing process,

00:37:39.482 --> 00:37:43.142
but it was extremely challenging, but extremely rewarding too.

00:37:43.782 --> 00:37:45.222
Where can someone find the book?

00:37:45.942 --> 00:37:50.582
Probably, well, it's on amazon.com. But if you don't like to shop on Amazon,

00:37:50.802 --> 00:37:54.942
if you go to amazonwoman.net, that's my website.

00:37:55.022 --> 00:37:58.602
And I've got a whole bunch of like independent books sellers where you can buy

00:37:58.602 --> 00:38:01.182
the books, and I've got links to them on my website.

00:38:01.822 --> 00:38:04.722
Fantastic. So tell us a little bit about Small World Adventures.

00:38:05.182 --> 00:38:06.882
Yeah, Small World Adventures.

00:38:07.302 --> 00:38:12.362
Don and I own that company together, and our main business is guiding kayakers,

00:38:12.702 --> 00:38:16.282
whitewater kayakers in Ecuador during North America's winter.

00:38:16.682 --> 00:38:19.962
And we do class three to class five trips there.

00:38:20.482 --> 00:38:24.082
And then in the summertime, we do some Grand Canyon trips, again,

00:38:24.202 --> 00:38:26.362
for kayakers and some Middle Fork salmon trips.

00:38:26.982 --> 00:38:32.282
And yeah, it's kind of what Don and I put most of our energy into these days.

00:38:32.822 --> 00:38:35.822
Cool. That's living the life. We're trying.

00:38:36.882 --> 00:38:38.922
So Darcy, how can listeners reach you?

00:38:39.599 --> 00:38:44.319
So, yeah, probably my last name is extremely hard to spell.

00:38:44.599 --> 00:38:48.779
So probably going to that amazonwoman.net is the best way.

00:38:48.939 --> 00:38:52.859
And I am on Instagram and Facebook and there's links to it off that website.

00:38:52.859 --> 00:38:59.059
Or if you're good at spelling, you can go to Darcy Gector, G-A-E-C-H-T-E-R,

00:38:59.279 --> 00:39:01.859
again on Instagram and Facebook. All right.

00:39:02.019 --> 00:39:06.879
Well, I would definitely put links in the show notes to your websites so we

00:39:06.879 --> 00:39:10.999
can direct people to your social media presence and have an opportunity to pick up the book.

00:39:11.399 --> 00:39:15.479
Awesome. Thanks. And I guess if I could, I'd just like to say one more thing about the book.

00:39:15.499 --> 00:39:21.639
Yeah, please do. A big motivation for me for writing the book is I am very short

00:39:21.639 --> 00:39:23.559
and skinny and puny looking.

00:39:23.839 --> 00:39:28.659
And I played volleyball in high school and college and became a kayaker and

00:39:28.659 --> 00:39:30.179
a raft guide and a business owner.

00:39:30.319 --> 00:39:34.319
But all through my life, I heard people telling me like, oh,

00:39:34.359 --> 00:39:37.719
you can't play volleyball. You're too short. You can't be a kayaker. You're too little.

00:39:37.979 --> 00:39:41.199
Women can't run class five, all kinds of stuff like this.

00:39:41.319 --> 00:39:46.259
And I feel very lucky that I didn't listen to these people. It kind of had the

00:39:46.259 --> 00:39:50.299
effect of making me very angry and just deciding that I had to prove them wrong.

00:39:50.479 --> 00:39:55.739
It made me work really hard to prove them wrong, which maybe isn't the most pure motivation.

00:39:55.799 --> 00:40:01.679
But I have seen a lot in my life, people who do listen to this sort of outside

00:40:01.679 --> 00:40:07.219
noise of the world. And so a big message for me is like not to let other people's

00:40:07.219 --> 00:40:10.339
judgments of you dictate the course of your life.

00:40:10.759 --> 00:40:15.779
And so I one big hope with writing this book is that, you know,

00:40:15.819 --> 00:40:18.319
I could show people like you can overcome all this stuff.

00:40:18.479 --> 00:40:24.139
You can do things that you maybe aren't stereotypically suited to do and just

00:40:24.139 --> 00:40:28.679
follow your dreams no matter what sort of feedback you're getting from the rest of the world.

00:40:29.319 --> 00:40:34.219
Don't let anybody tell you you can't until you try. Exactly. All right. Fantastic.

00:40:34.899 --> 00:40:38.639
Darcy, this has been great. I really appreciate your time and learning about

00:40:38.639 --> 00:40:40.039
you and learning about your story.

00:40:40.219 --> 00:40:44.859
And I've got one final question that I always like to ask at the end of our episodes.

00:40:45.099 --> 00:40:48.719
And that is, Darcy, who else would you like to hear as a guest on Paddling the

00:40:48.719 --> 00:40:54.219
Blue? I don't know her personally, but if you could get Freya Hoffmeister on

00:40:54.219 --> 00:40:55.779
the show, that would be awesome.

00:40:56.179 --> 00:41:01.339
The German kayaker who does these crazy circumnavigations of many continents

00:41:01.339 --> 00:41:04.619
around the world. I think it would be fascinating to hear her story.

00:41:04.879 --> 00:41:08.659
All right. I've actually just talked to somebody just recently,

00:41:08.659 --> 00:41:11.339
and we were talking a little bit about Freya as well.

00:41:11.719 --> 00:41:16.219
So I'll have to reach out to Freya and see if we can get her on the show as

00:41:16.219 --> 00:41:19.399
well. All right. That'd be awesome. All right. Any final comments?

00:41:20.079 --> 00:41:24.579
No, that's it. Thanks so much, John, for having me. I appreciate chatting with you. It was fun.

00:41:24.959 --> 00:41:27.259
Absolutely. It's been a great time. I appreciate, like I said,

00:41:27.339 --> 00:41:30.899
listening to you and learning about your story and wish you the absolute best

00:41:30.899 --> 00:41:33.819
of success in the future. All right. Thanks, John. Thank you.

00:41:36.259 --> 00:41:39.859
If you want to be a stronger and more efficient paddler, Power to the Paddle

00:41:39.859 --> 00:41:43.499
is packed with fitness guidance and complete descriptions along with photos

00:41:43.499 --> 00:41:47.919
of more than 50 exercises to improve your abilities and enjoy your time on the water.

00:41:48.119 --> 00:41:51.939
The concept and exercises in this book have helped me become a better paddler

00:41:51.939 --> 00:41:53.579
and they can make a difference for you too.

00:41:53.979 --> 00:41:57.519
The exercises in the book can help you reduce tension in your shoulders and

00:41:57.519 --> 00:42:01.419
low back, use the power of your torso to create leverage and use less energy

00:42:01.419 --> 00:42:05.299
with each stroke, use force generated from your lower body to make your paddling

00:42:05.299 --> 00:42:06.179
strokes more efficient,

00:42:06.619 --> 00:42:10.099
have the endurance to handle long days in the boat, drive through the toughest

00:42:10.099 --> 00:42:13.499
waves or white water, protect your body against common paddling injuries,

00:42:13.659 --> 00:42:16.999
and while you're at it, you might even lose a few pounds, and who wouldn't mind that?

00:42:17.159 --> 00:42:21.299
So visit paddlingexercises.com to get the book and companion DVD.

00:42:22.599 --> 00:42:26.319
Darcy's book Amazon Woman is a great read, and you'll get all the things that

00:42:26.319 --> 00:42:31.099
we couldn't fit into an interview. You'll find a link in the show notes so you can get your own copy.

00:42:31.539 --> 00:42:34.679
After the interview, Darcy and I talked about mining along the river and its

00:42:34.679 --> 00:42:37.639
devastating effect on not only the people who live there, but the world.

00:42:38.039 --> 00:42:41.739
Learn more by visiting the Ecuadorian Rivers Institute. You'll also find a link

00:42:41.739 --> 00:42:43.119
in the show notes for that one as well.

00:42:43.479 --> 00:42:46.919
Thanks again for listening to this encore episode, and I look forward to bringing

00:42:46.919 --> 00:42:49.239
you the next episode of Paddling the Blue.

00:42:50.599 --> 00:42:54.119
Thank you for listening to Paddling the Blue. You can subscribe to Paddling

00:42:54.119 --> 00:42:59.419
the Blue on Apple Music, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts.

00:42:59.619 --> 00:43:02.559
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00:43:02.739 --> 00:43:04.399
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00:43:04.599 --> 00:43:07.839
And you can find the show notes for this episode and other episodes,

00:43:08.159 --> 00:43:13.599
along with replays of past episodes, contact information, and more at paddlingtheblue.com.

00:43:13.779 --> 00:43:16.899
Until next time, I hope you get out and paddle the blue.